HTC have finally officially announced the price of the ‘Consumer Edition’ of their Valve SteamVR powered virtual reality solution. The HTC Vive will cost a cool $799.

Those eagerly awaiting news on how much they can expect to have to lay down to own a piece of Valve’s vision of VR’s future can rest easy. HTC have announced that their Vive VR system will ship from April 1st and cost $799. Pre-orders have also been reaffirmed as going live February 29th with a more precise time of 10am Eastern (7am PST / 3pm GMT).

For your 800 bucks, this is what you’ll get in the box:

Hardware

  • 1 x ‘Vive’ VR headset
  • 2 x SteamVR Wireless Controllers
  • 2 x ‘Lighthouse’ Laser Base stations (for positional tracking)

Games:

What’s new?

The only new feature announced today is Vive Phone Services, the ability to attach your phone via Bluetooth direct to the Vive VR headset to make and take calls and send SMS messages. The theory? Immersion breaking headset removals are irritating. Giving you the option to remain in VR whilst remaining connected to the real world is the key. And given HTC’s long history as a mobile phone manufacturer, the move probably shouldn’t be surprising.

HTC-Vive-Headset-Consumer-Launch-Side

Other than Vive Phone Services, the ‘Consumer Edition’ looks essentially identical to the ‘Pre’ edition we got our hands on at CES last month and which shipped to developers recently. Upgrades from the original ‘Developer Edition’ include a lighter, more ergonomic form factor and redesigned SteamVR controllers. The biggest technical addition is a front-facing camera for passing through a view an augmented overlay of the real world inside your VR experience.

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SteamVR 'Shell' is Customizable, Allows Seamless VR Game Switching and Web Browsing

HTC-Vive-Consumer-Launch-SteamVR-controllers

HTC are positioning the Vive as a complete ‘room scale’ VR solution, that is one which ships with everything you need to enjoy their particular brand of tethered, ‘free roaming’ virtual reality is all in the box from day one.

HTC’s message is a clear effort to differentiate themselves from the Oculus Rift, the only other desktop PC VR solution in the running at the moment. Oculus’ excellent ‘Touch’ motion controllers have unfortunately been delayed until the 2nd half of 2016, forcing the company to ship their Rift consumer VR headset with an Xbox One gamepad.

HTC-Vive-Headset-Consumer-Launch-1

The unique selling point of the SteamVR powered Vive system is its focus on ‘room scale’ VR. The kind of standing, walking, ducking and even running virtual reality experiences that Oculus are at present shying away from, even if they’re technically capable of delivering them with the Rift. This differentiator is strong, but is tempered by the fact that, despite SteamVR’s ability to fit many virtual experiences to different room sizes, not everyone will have enough space to make full use of roaming VR.

Nevertheless, despite the seemingly high $799 price tag, the HTC Vive Consumer Edition does represent a sizeable amount of technology and functionality for your money. We’ll dig into precisely how big in an article to come soon.

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  • Peter

    Thats…actually less than I expected..!

    • Indeed! Now waiting on when it’ll be coming into local shops in Germany.

      • Peter

        just read this; jay for us euroguys!!

        ” Valve and HTC revealed that Vive will launch initially in 24 countries:
        The U.S., Canada, UK, Germany, France, Austria, Belgium, Czech
        Republic, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway,
        Poland, Spain, Switzerland, Ireland, Sweden, Taiwan, China, Japan,
        Australia and New Zealand.

    • Mateusz Pawluczuk

      Same here, this is only $100 bucks more when people were guessing south of $1000

  • cdm283813

    Wow! Factor in the included controllers this should be right on par with Oculus Rift and it’s 2 controllers (when available).

    • George Vieira IV

      The fact that the Oculus Touch will also come with another tracking camera makes that believable, though still on the expensive side. That does bring up a good question. If the Oculus Touch is $200 how small of a subset of those owning a Rift will own the Touch?

      • Omar Ceja Salgado

        It would certainly create a split user base within the same platform. Those who own touch and those who don’t which directly relates to developers wanting to develop their games for the largest of the two audiences. Perhaps if the controllers are released soon and they are bundled with the device the majority of users will have them as a standard feature and those first adopters without them might be more encouraged to acquire them, maybe even with a price reduction for having already bought the HMD.

        • user2

          whatever they will cost, they wont be cheaper for people who already bought the hmd. because everybody who buys them has already bought the hmd. because they are useless without the hmd.

    • Mateusz Pawluczuk

      I’m not sure they would charge 200$ for touch but then again after seeing ballpark $699 one can expect anything

  • David Pifko

    Source?

  • Tom VR

    Total Virtual Reality package for 799.99.

    • Rob B

      Not total, given that you still need a decent computer as well.

      • Tom VR

        Agreed.

        • TruB

          how about, leg tracking, walking add ons, eye tracking, foveated rendering?

      • care package

        Computers shouldn’t be part of the cost since you can use a high end computer for more than just VR. I upgraded and now I am gaming in 1440p resolution.

        • Rob B

          Well for those of us that don’t have a high end computer, (not gamers), then I stand by my observation that its not a total virtual reality package price.

          I think mobile VR solutions (like Gear VR) are closer to ‘total package price’, but you still need a decent phone, though it is amortized over the cost of most phone plans.

      • Rob H

        By the same logic you can claim even with the pc it’s not the total package as you need electricity to power that. They’re separate entities in their own right and should be considered as such. Would you say the same if someone was talking about a high spec 4k monitor?

        • Rob B

          The cost of electricity is negligible in comparison to the other costs. The cost of the minimum PC, on the other hand, is greater than the cost of the VR accessories.

          If someone were talking about a high spec 4k monitor, then they would be wrong to describe its price as ‘Total Home Theatre Package for $X.XX’ for example.

          • Rob H

            I don’t see how the electricity consumption of a high end pc is negligible when you consider the annual cost whereas these are one off purchases but regardless that’s not the point I was making – I said using your logic that statement would also be correct.

            That’s exactly my point with the example of a 4k monitor. It might come with speakers, 4k screen, 3d, freesysc, a remote control etc and may well be described as the total package in terms of monitors much in the same way the op described the vive to be the total package in terms of vr hmds.

          • Rob B

            And what exactly is the annual added electrical cost to the average home wishing to add VR? 0.1% ? Is that even a serious question or a pedantic attempt at winning some imagined debate?

            And the OP didn’t specify in terms of hmds but ‘total virtual reality package’. He even agreed with my assessment in his reply for crying out loud, so please go torture someone else.

          • Rob H

            Well using my my pc as an example it uses ~650w (which is by no means a lot in terms of high end pcs). I’ll admit I’m pretty sad as I love gaming and therefore spend about 30+ hours on my pc a week. This means I use roughly 19.5kwh a week just on my PC. Annually this means i would use just over 1000kwh just on my PC. ‘British Gas’ are the providers of my electricity and my rate is just under £0.15 per kwh inc taxes. Annually that comes to just over £152 – just to power a vr ready pc every year. Hardly 0.1%

            Plus, I don’t give a shit what the op said on a later occasion, I agree with the statement that the htc vive is the total VR package. What’s required to power the VR equipment is irrelevant in that statement.

          • Rob B

            How much do your expected electricity costs rise switching to vr is the relevant point you keep ignoring.
            The fact you redefining what the OP intended even when he agrees with my observation in his reply just makes this whole exchange even sadder. Honestly.

          • Rob H

            I’m not ignoring it at all. You’re the one that brought the PC into this in the first place saying you needed to buy a new one. I already have one capable of vr so that’s a massive 0% added to the total cost so by your own logic in terms of what should be considered negligible you’ve just agreed with me about how it shouldn’t be considered as part of the ‘total VR package’. Thanks

          • Rob B

            Your tenacity and debating a self contradictory position is impressive.

            Who cares if you already have a gaming PC?
            Unless those fall from the sky on demand, it’s still a costly and integral part of any ‘total VR package’.
            The fact you already made that purchase, doesn’t eliminate the cost.

            I don’t have a gaming PC, for example, so $799 would not get me a ‘total VR package’.
            However $3,000 would get me a hololens for example, and that would be a ‘total VR package’, as would a $5 google cardboard + $50 generic phone.

            And most people already use electricity heavily, so I’m not going to include the additional cost of running said gear, nor the cost of installing electric wiring in my home, etc.

            Understand yet?
            Of course you do. You’re just here to be a contrarian and drum up ridiculous debates where none exist.
            Let me know when you have something worthwhile to contribute, otherwise Ive wasted enough time giving credence to your alleged concerns.

          • realtrisk

            Dude, save your breath. He’s a retarded little fanboy. Just read some of his posts. You’re completely correct, he’s just stupid.

          • Rob B

            Thanks, but Im the fool for continuously replying!

          • Rob H

            Yeh @rbairos:disqus read this guys other comments to gain an idea of this guys level of intelligence and see the type of retard that sides with you xD

          • Rob H

            “fanboy”…of what? VR? Yeh hence why i’m on a vr dedicated website…

            ps. Not sure why you think typing requires any extra “breath” – and you’re calling others stupid xD

          • Rob H

            “Of course you do. You’re just here to be a contrarian and drum up ridiculous debates where none exist. Let me know when you have something worthwhile to contribute, otherwise Ive wasted enough time giving credence to your alleged concerns.” sort of sums up your original comment. It wasn’t needed, relevant or adds any sort of value to the op.He was comparing the hmds package contents, you brought something that’s irrelevant into it as that requirement is exactly the same for both.

            Also, hololens is ar not vr, so that statement is completely incorrect. And if you’re being that pedantic, you forgot the cost of a monitor too as you need one to set the headset up in the first place, and don’t forget the keyboard, the mouse…. . Seriously, buy a pc, get over it, quit crying. Noone here cares about the fact you don’t already have one. Most people serious about vr do already have one as It’s not like these release dates and req specs are some sudden massive shocker.

          • yag

            You waste your time if you try to communicate with Rob H. He can’t conceive a simple conversation without him “winning it” and everyone who doesn’t think like him is a “sad fuck”. He’s just an autist with zero empathy and social skills…

  • George Vieira IV

    About what I expected, hope it’s low enough a price to get into a decent number of homes.

    “Oculus’ excellent ‘Touch’ motion controllers have unfortunately been delayed until the 2nd half of 2016,”
    Pretty sure Oculus never gave a release date for the Touch, it seemed to me they made a calculated desisiton to go with the Xbox controller rather than ship with their motion controllers

    • CURTROCK

      Agreed, George. The inclusion of an Xbox controller is not an unfortunate “stop-gap measure” as implied…Oculus has a strategic partnership with Microsoft/Xbox, and the reasons for incl the controller have been clearly stated.

      • Omar Ceja Salgado

        Exacly. I remember Lucky stating that a traditional controller would not be a good fit for the device. So them announcing that the Rift would be released with an Xbox controller is a bit contradicting and non-sensical to say the least. Add to that the fact that many PC gamers may already have an Xbox controller lying around anyway.

        • Bob

          The aim was to not package in something that doesn’t have support. The input solution that they have was not given to developers to play with because they were still prototyping whilst working on the Crescent Bay. What is the point of putting the Touch controllers in with the main device if no game on launch is going to support it? The Xbox One controller, based on it’s PC heritage, was the only “standard” thing that developers were using to develop for the Rift using the DK units in addition to other third party companies like Sixense and Leap Motion. The advantage that the Vive has here is that from the beginning they have been implementing all software development with the motion controllers with select “handpicked” developers. Oculus did not go the same direction because initially they were only focused on delivering the headset itself and not any other solution.

          • Omar Ceja Salgado

            That’s the thing. They should have send touch controllers (even if rough prototypes) to developers at least a few months before launch.

          • Andrew Jakobs

            Yep, but that ‘handpicked’ set of developers is exactly what’s the problem for the vive.. Too few games out which will support the vive’s plusses, and 80% of the consumers just don’t have the needed space to be able to use the ‘roomscale’ features of the vive.. You’ll propably see that vive users will be using xbox controllers too during seated games..

          • JoeD

            So what? It’s those games that do support those features that make the difference. It’s not like the Vive can’t do what the Rift does, it’s just that when you do get a game that allows the kind of freedom the Vive allows you’ve got it, as apposed to the Rift. Plus, I think you’re underestimating the amount of people who have the room or will make room for such immersion. Hell, people made room for that stupid Kinect, which was a joke. The real question is how much will Rift owners have to pay to get their touch controllers plus the second camera (that and purchasing the Rift now means waiting to use touch controllers)? For $200 more Vive owners get controllers, and room-scale VR now. My guess is all told the full Rift package will come in about $50 less than the Vive when all is said and done. Is $50 worth the wait? That’s up to the individual, but people spend less for a night out at a restaurant.

            80% This is from your exhaustive study of all potential Vive customers?

        • Andrew Jakobs

          they already said at the beginning of 2015 that the Oculus would ship with a xbox(like) controller.. so it’s no suprise the did release it with one..

    • yag

      Or maybe the Touch was really not ready ?…Or they though $600 was already expensive enough while not everybody needswants motion controllers ?

      • George Vieira IV

        I’m sure the touch wasn’t ready, but they never gave a date for its release, so you really can’t say it was “delayed”.

        Personally I’m happy they are releasing the HMD separate from the controllers, since most of what I’m interested in involves peripherals specific for the game I want to play (Steering wheel, Joystick/HOTAS)

        • yag

          Agree it’s a good move from Oculus, there are a lot of simmers (like you) among the first buyers, other people are not even interested by gaming…

  • CURTROCK

    This pricing makes sense. If the TOUCH package comes in around $200, then the VIVE & RIFT are in price parity. (Although those who are nit pickers would point out the VIVE doesn’t seem to include headphones like RIFT does) So, the decision which HMD to choose will be made based on platform & software, as opposed to cost. This is good. I choose both, when finances permit. (LoL) Looking fwd to info from Sony, on the next entry in the VR ecosystem, PSVR.

    • Bryan Ischo

      True about the headphones, but the rift doesn’t come with a camera. Easier to add headphones to the experience than a pass-through camera for the end-user.

      • TruB

        ” but the rift doesn’t come with a camera.”
        It does, what are you talking about?

        • Killa Kyle

          The Vive has a front-mounted camera on the headset. It’s how the chaperone feature works. The Rift doesn’t have that.

          • TruB

            Ahh, My mistake.

    • Bryan Ischo

      True about the headphones, but the rift doesn’t come with a camera. Easier to add headphones to the experience than a pass-through camera for the end-user.

    • DougP

      Re: “Although those who are nit pickers would point out ”
      Nit pickers should also point out the Rift doesn’t have built in camera.
      Also, by default the Vive has TWO sensors to Rift’s one.

      • CURTROCK

        You are paying $200 more, for that extra sensor. When you buy the Touch for Rift, you will get a 2nd sensor as well. Assuming this costs about $200, we are back to platform & ecosystem, not price. (Granted, VIVE has camera, Rift has headphones)

        • DougP

          You’re paying $200 more for:
          1) 2x motion controllers
          2) extra sensor for better tracking & room-scale (as well as when seated being able to turn 180 degrees)
          3) front facing camera
          As for the headset – no thanks, already have way better headphones.
          The Vive comes with earbuds – I’ll use those on my phone I ‘spose. :)

          • CURTROCK

            These are both AMAZING products, at about the same price/quality. We are fortunate to have a choice between 2 great VR systems. I wish both Oculus & Valve much success.

          • yag

            Exactly, fanboyism/hatred is ridiculous at this point. Futhermore the headsets are not even released yet.

      • Andrew Jakobs

        Actually, it’s the lighthouse is not a sensor, but an emitter, the sensors are in the headset..

        • DougP

          I know lighthouse emits. Wrote that in a hurry & was just consolidating using the language of the Rift, as that was what I was complaining about.

          Here’s a better way to make that a singular description which applies to both:
          “TWO points of direction for sensing position”

          I realize from your other posts you’re an Facebook headset fan & apologist, but just thought I’d clarify about the directional/room-scale sensing/coverage.

          • DougP

            Also – you do realize also that the emitter is a better solution – everything is captured at the HMD & simplies cables.

          • Andrew Jakobs

            OH BS in regard to facebook headset fan & apologist, the fact you call the Oculus a “Facebook headset” says enough about your fanboy behaviour… I don’t have any real feelings for the Oculus or the vive, I own a couple of different headsets including the DK2.. I myself have more than enough space to use the vive, but even looking at spaces my friends/family own, I do see problems for having a permanent setup, and people don’t want to keep moving furniture just to be able to use their Vive..

          • DougP

            Oh BS on you – anyone can read your excuses about the Facebook headset.

            Re: “your fanboy behaviour”
            WTF?! So are you saying I’m a fanboy of Valve? HTC? SteamVR?
            What – can’t nail down your ridiculous claim? Because it’s pure BS, that’s why.

            Re: “I own a couple of different headsets including”
            Well…mr “I own”, not that you asked, but – I use/own Oculus DK1, multiple Google cardboard, AND Oculus+Samsung Gear VR!
            Now you gonna whine I’m Oculus/Samsung fanboy?

            Oops – blow away your BS narrative?!

            You’ve been apologizing elsewhere in this thread for Facebook’s headset.
            Oooh…. I dared call out who owns the headset, that makes me a fanboy of …umm…err…*something* else?

            Re: “people don’t want to keep moving furniture just to be able to use their Vive”

            Since when were you elected to speak for “what people want”.
            Vive’s room-scale targets a minimum spec of “the size of 2x yoga mats”. *gasp* No one has that much room in their house/apartment?!

            No one could slide a coffee table or chair 1m to clear the space – eegads!

            Seriously?!

            I bet you made the exact same argument against the Nintendo Wii, which often utilized similar standing space with playing with motion controls.

            Face it – you’re a Facebook-fanboy-apologist.

            Are you getting paid for these comments, stock holder, or what?

    • Andrew Jakobs

      Don’t count on the touch package to come in at $200, rather more in the $100-$150 range, including the extra camera.. Just look at how much a Sony Move controller goes for these days, which BTW are excellent VR input controllers, sadly Sony doesn’t support them really by providing official drivers for windows.. Still can’t understand why they don’t as they make profit on each controller/camera sold, and with more people having those controllers it’s more likely developers will support them on the playstation platform, but also on the PC platform, which will increase the number of controllers sold..

  • Yogi Bear

    Try proof reading before you release your final . Lots of errors. Was this written by a sixth grader?

    • take it easy man.. at least we got the news

    • Marcopolo

      Couldn’t agree more. There rarely is an article on this site without a typo, missing word or other error. Same goes for Ben Lang’s articles. Just read them once after you write them. Is that too much to ask to keep the site more professional?

      • RoadToVR

        One day we’ll tell the story of Road to VR and just what everyone who contributes to the site has to sacrifice to ensure the news is kept up to date. If we did I reckon people might be a little more forgiving.

        Until then, of course errors are unwanted and we do our best to eliminate them. I’ve reviewed this post and corrected the issues I’ve found. Thank you for bringing them to our attention.

      • CURTROCK

        Best VR news site on the web, and you want to complain about a word or 2 spelled wrong? Wow.

        • yag

          Yeah we should cheer them instead… I find the writing pretty good overall (despite my weak english).

    • RoadToVR

      The irony is strong with this comment. ;)

      • Yogi Bear

        The irony is you have a bunch of nerdball high school kids writing for you. You guys really need to get a life and a real girlfriend not a VR one.

  • Clemency77

    I don’t think the Oculus is “technically capable of delivering” the room scale VR experience that the Vive does. I’ve seen this statement made a lot, and it’s just not true. You can’t turn around 180 degrees with the Oculus without getting occluded, and you certainly can’t move very far from the camera without losing tracking accuracy. If room-scale VR were capable with just one camera mounted on your computer, why would Steam be wasting resources with Lighthouse? The Vive is the only headset that can pull this off, and Oculus would need to release a whole new generation of headsets to catch up.

    • Palmer announced on Twitter that he was able to get room-scale working by placing the 2nd camera that comes with Oculus Touch in the opposite corner of the room. Regardless, the company is not bothering to support room-scale in stance or software because they think it’s too impractical in the average apartment/home, and could drive the mainstream (not hardcore) customer away.

      • jlschmugge

        Indeed. Since hearing about Vive’s roomscale approach, I felt it is more limiting that you are required to spend your whole VR experience boxed into a certain area, vs. developers finding a better use of VR locomotion that allows players to move freely in game while remaining seated at their couch. Even though roomscale is impressive in terms of immersion, I feel that it will be too much for most consumers in repeated practice, especially if you have to arrange living space large enough for the experience. Since putting on a HMD takes you out of the real world, it is less essential to still be moving in the real world, especially for the escapism nature of games. It is more important that a sense of freedom is managed inside the design of the game with minimal manipulation of the “outside” real world. If that is achieved, real-world movement becomes not only unnecessary, but can act as an encumbrance to the simulated experience.

        • REP

          What do you mean repeated practice? In a VR game, you couldn’t careless if you walk in a repeated pattern in the real world because the virtual world is different. So your statement doesn’t make sense.

          • Andrew Jakobs

            If you have to keep turning because of the limited space, then there isn’t much sense of big space (and there is no way to circumvent that).. The only way you can have a good ‘full freedome’ experience is using a treadmill kind of solution, and guess what, the Oculus is perfect for that..

          • user2

            is it? how does it solve the problem of tracking when you turn around?

          • Andrew Jakobs

            I don’t see real problems with the current treadmill setups which use the oculus rift.. But for enhanced tracking you’ll need a second camera (which will be available when the touchcontrollers are released).. Just like the vive also doesn’t work without the second laser emitter..
            But both sets have their advantages and disadvantages.. and ofcourse it would be better if there was one ubertracking system that would be a standard so controllers and headsets can just use that system without each having their own.. I couldn’t care less which system it would be, as long as it’s accurate, cheap and easily upgradable..

          • jlschmugge

            There are two things that concern me about VR, that we lost the ability to freely move around an open world like Skyrim, and that it is going to require me to make gestures or even get up and walk around. For the first I understand that the traditional thumbnail movement has gotten people sick, and for the second, I suppose that is just personal preference, and I am not the Vive’s target demo. Having to move in a treadmill situation sounds fun if I was going an arcade, but i do not want that at home. Same with roomscale.

            I want open world free roaming VR FPS, but developers haven’t found a way to do it that can reach the majority the people that are affected by motion sickness. There is a game called Adrift that gives me hope. In that you are in a space suit. That gives the frame of reference for locomotion and turning your POV around relative the inside of your helmet. I think an evolution of this is what need to get free roaming FPS back, and not stuck inside a box or transporting everywhere. We still have to see how Adrift works in real world in consumers hands.

          • As a developer who works with Vive almost every day, I think I can answer a few of your concerns.

            “it is going to require me to make gestures or even get up and walk around.” Certain games (Raw Data) yes, others (Lucky’s Tale) no. As one Engadget writer pointed out, he found the fun of room-scale compelled him to get off the couch: http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/04/im-too-out-of-shape-for-virtual-reality/ . Ninja Trainer for Vive really is a workout. If you game at the end of a long day when you’re tired and need a break, those games just aren’t for you; you’ll stick with Lucky’s Tale-type experiences and monitor games (remember, despite TV, radio is still around).

            “that we lost the ability to freely move around an open world like Skyrim” “I want open world free roaming VR FPS, but developers haven’t found a way to do it”
            Right, free-roaming like we have in games today will require an Omni or one of its competitors. A grounded FPS with Counterstrike-like maps simply can’t be done comfortably without treadmill hardware. Some games like Adrift and ElemenTerra are able to use flying in a comfortable way because your flying ability is made canon, and tricks are used to prevent motion sickness, but I don’t think that works well for ground travel.

            These restrictions aren’t necessarily bad, I think you’ll find that they lead to fundamentally different types of games that couldn’t have existed on the PC in the first place. There are certain advantages to room-scale over treadmills. I don’t think Fantastic Contraption, Job Simulator, or Ninja Trainer would have worked on the Omni: you’re kneeling down, interacting with stuff at knee level, waist level, and head level. Room-scale is really more about your arms than your feet, in a way.

            “If it’s more about your arms and feet”, you might ask, “how is it better than Oculus-style standing VR?” To that, I’d answer, that’s like the difference between playing on a smartphone and a PC. More screen and controller real-estate, or in this case, more physical real-estate, gives you a more comfortable, less cramped experience.

          • jlschmugge

            Good input. There will be games for those who want to dance around, and games for those who just want to relax and sit on a couch like me.

            On locomotion and free-roaming first-person, the evolution I hope to see is the suit becoming a frame of reference, just like how cockpit games work. For now it is suits floating in space, next maybe a power suit that can walk around on land? I hope then after that, VR has been around for a little while that it’s main user base has acclimated to using a HMD and less prone to motion sickness, then we could start simplifying the “suit as a cockpit frame of reference” for a more natural FPS style of gameplay. I never expect to return to Call of Duty levels of intense play; in VR that is a ridiculous and unnaturally fast and twitchy style of movement, but lets say to be able to freely roam around in a fantasy RPG setting for miles or some of the upcoming space exploration games like No Man’s Sky in 3D with head-tracking would be awe inspiring.

          • Rob H

            In what was is the vive not also perfect for that whilst also offering room scale as an option as well? Plus, if you’ve ever tried a 360 treadmill in their current state you’d know exactly why hmd developers are having nothing to do with them.

        • Velox

          Think you’re missing the point though? Room scale is optional. This isn’t rift = sitting, Vive = room scale. The Vive simply gives the *option* of room scale if you want it. I like to keep my options open! Personally I’m going for the Vive as I feel that the lighthouse tech is a far better system than a camera and for the option of room scale stuff if I want it. For $100 – $200 more or whatever it is, the Vive seems a much better choice although I think the rift is the safer purchase with facebooks massive presence behind it.

      • I agree with Palmer. I’ve used the GearVR both seated and standing, and I can’t help wishing all of the games I’ve tried would stick to the concept of players sitting on their couch. Although people messed around with them because they were innovative, how much real use did the Kinect and Wii? Face it, gamers are lazy! We like to sit! ;)

        • Shaw Walters

          Yes and no. Room scale means that games might appeal to people who want an active experience. The Wii was actually a massive success and brought a ton of people into gaming who wouldn’t be caught dead playing hardcore gamer faire ala GTA or Halo or something. The Kinect’s failure as a game controller is mostly the result of it kinda sucking and not having a lot of good games, although the Kinect has become very popular among hardware hackers and the like.

          Adult women make up the primary gaming demographic, and you can be that roomscale is going to open up all kinds of new “casual” gaming experiences, from live Zumba to ninja training.

        • Rob H

          While driving, flying etc. in vr is incredibly fun while seated, the vast majority of other games simply aren’t. VR is all about immersion. Walking around in a a virtual world but refusing to do so much as stand in the real one completely breaks it therefore defeating the entire purpose of vr. Getting vr because you want a fancy 3d screen is rediculous, just go buy a 3d screen. Palmer is basically killing his own device by even suggesting things such as that. It’s like designing and developing kinect and then selling it at full price but limiting it’s only functionality to taking a photo because not everyone wants to use motion tracking. Also, the wii was a success and many people who weren’t typical ‘gamers’ adopting it. It’s because of people like you thinking they speak for everyone from the comfort of your chair that gamers gained this horrible stereotype when in fact you have no clue as you don’t actually get out and meet people in the real world. I’d love gaming to evolve into something more than the stagnant ‘copy and paste’ attitude video game development has fallen into. In 10 years time when you’re still sat on your lazy ass, what revolutionary game experiences are you expecting that can accommodate that compared to the possibilities fully trackable motion in vr is capable of offering? Everything that can has already been done for seated gaming and 2d screens (and 3d) are perfect for it – Go use those. For those of us that want something new and exciting, it is pathetic marketing decisions like this setting back progress. Plus the only real reason they’ve not decided to pursue it isn’t because ‘they chose not to’ -They only even tested it as a possibility when the vive gave it competition. None of the developers interested in supporting room scale would ever opt for a rushed, bodged attempt at room scale oculus could attempt to develop in time for release when the vive already offers a fully functioning alternative with the likes of valve backing it! Oculus were late to the game and lost out. Even if they ‘chose to’ add room scale as a feature, they have no software to utilize it making it obsolete to even try and compete in time.

    • Mateusz Pawluczuk

      What are you talking about? DK2 or something??? Oculus has constelation tracking, turning 180 is no problem at all. I’m not sure you can move “far away” that I have to agree. But turning around 180 was one of main points of their new constellation system. Maybe you mean touch controllers which indeed cannot be used when facing away the camera unless you have two.

    • Andrew Jakobs

      Yeah great, roomscale VR, but what’s the use of it, if you don’t have the space needed… You’ll need at least 2x2meters of clear space, at least.. And I don’t know what you are talking about, I can even turn my head 180 degrees with the DK2 without it being occluded, that’s why there are traking dots on the back of the headset..
      Vive might be a great roomscale solution, but most consumers just don’t have the needed clear space..

      • user2

        he talks about the touch controllers (occlusion).

        • Andrew Jakobs

          that’s not how I see it as there is no information about the touch controllers in regard to 180 degrees occulusion etc.. hell there is no real information about the touch controllers, period..

          • David Mulder

            There is, we know that it works using the same tracking solution as the Oculus Rift itself (visual) and that the Oculus Rift uses by default only a single tracking angle. Now, it could be possible that the Touch comes bundled with a second camera, but if that’s the case it will still be a great pain in the *** to set up as every camera needs a USB connection to the PC unlike Vive’s solution. So I agree with the article that the Oculus is technically capable of delivering room tracking, as the same time its design is less suited to it.

          • user2
      • JoeD

        Again can you provide your exhaustive survey of most consumers who are going to be purchasing VR so we can see how “most” of them don’t have the space? I mean Jesus H, when I lived alone in my $700 a month apartment I had plenty of room for something like this. Who are these people you’re talking about? People in NYC apartments? Kids in dorm rooms?

      • JoeD

        Also, do you have a VR device? I currently have the GearVR and the desire, and need, to move in VR is so strong – and not just leaning your head around. I put the Gear on people who’ve never used it and their first inclination is to start moving. I have to remind them that they can’t. I feel the need myself when doing any VR. I think once people try the Vive, compared to the Rift people will want that ability to move more. And the device that offers the best experince in that regard I think will start to come out on top.

        • Andrew Jakobs

          I own several different headsets, including the DK2..

          • Rob H

            But I can safely guess none of the “several headsets” are capable of roomscale and you’ve never actually tried it, hence why you’d apparently struggle to find just 2x2m of space. Once you’ve tried it, you’ll make the space. As @disqus_KKcpUB61eN:disqus rightly said, whenever I have friends/familty put on a vr headset one of their first instincts is to move around. With the rift it’s far worse a situation as you’re also limited to a pathetic controller for the rest of the year too until they actually release touch, which incidentally will negate any price difference as it still won’t have roomscale posibilities. Picking up a Rift over Vive at this point is completely illogical.

      • DougP

        Re: You’ll need at least 2x2meters of clear space, at least..
        “at least..” – *gasp*!
        It’s been described multiple times that the target minimum for “room scale”, really standing & moving around a bit/turning/etc as “about the size of 2 yoga mats”.
        *gasp* the horrors! Who could possibly clear the size of 2x yoga mats in their home to use VR?!!! One might have to slide a chair or coffee table 1m away!

        It’s clear from your comments, Andrew, that you’re a Facebook headset fan, but there’s no reason to spew propaganda for fear of the premium, all-inclusive, solution.

      • Rob H

        “You’ll need at least 2x2meters of clear space, at least.”…i’m sorry, even if that was the case (which it isn’t btw), what sort of shoebox do you live in that you can’t clear just 2x2m of space to use something you love? Most people have MUCH more than that dedicated to their ‘tv area’ and VR is far superior to that.

    • yag

      Actually no HMD is capable of delivering a proper roomscale experience because all are tethered to a cable.

      • Rob H

        Buy a £1-5 hook/clip from a diy store and attach it to your ceiling – you now have an overhead holder/feeder for your wires so they don’t get in the way. Many other options would work too. Looks like room scale is available for those with functioning brains that can get round a simple problem.

        • Rob B

          You still feel the drag of the cable, which shortens considerably if it now needs to reach a spot in your ceiling. Not to mention, it will limit the amount of rotations you can make before something is damaged.

          • Rob H

            Why would something break just because you turned around? It’s the wire twisting, not the hook/suspension anchor which is no different from turning without it being suspended. In fact this solution increases the number of turns you can make as the wire’s not going to get wrapped around you like it would if it weren’t suspended. Also, suspension will decrease, not increase, the drag as you only have the pull of gravity from the suspension anchor to the hmd which would be negligible when dealing with such a such a short length of hdmi cable. Not that i’m doing any of this tbh as it’s not that bad without it but if i decide to after a bit of use it’s a simple solution that’ll cost less than £10 maximum. I don’t get what’s hard to understand about it, it’s basic physics. Is common sense not common anymore or something?

          • Rob B

            Whether its tethered to the ceiling or not, the amount of rotations is limited. It will still snap eventually after enough turns in a virtual world, especially one that expects you to swivel often.

            And your suggestion still dramatically shortens your total distance, having to loop through a hook on the ceiling.

            Ive done the Vive, and the tether is cumbersome, not negligible for these reasons.

            PS. Not sure why you insist on offering each of your suggestions with insults? It’s not warranted or even useful.

          • Rob H

            Like are you trolling right now? There is no difference in the amount of turns whether it was suspended or not as it wouldn’t be fixed in position at the point of suspension. Seriously, go try it if you don’t believe me.

            ps. I insist in putting an insult at the end of each one as idiots insist on posting factually incorrect comments.

          • Rob B

            Trolling? Im defending the OP’s claim that tethered VR is not a proper roomscale solution, for the specific reasons listed.

            Your claim that a ceiling hook fixes this for ‘those with a functioning brain’ is not a fix, and actually introduces a second problem (halved distance).

            “ps. I insist in putting an insult at the end of each one as idiots insist on posting factually incorrect comments.”

            Sorry this is how you spend your life, picking virtual internet fights with those that aren’t interested.

          • Rob H

            Like are you seriously that dumb? They teach this level of basic physics is secondary school. I could waste my time trying to explain it to you but i guess if you didn’t learn such simple stuff in school taught by trained professionals i’m not going to stand a chance. Like seriously, if you don’t believe me try it irl and have your mind blown.

          • Rob B

            Whether a cable is directly attached to its final endpoint or looped through a dozen ceiling hooks has absolutely no bearing on the absolute number of times it can twist in revolution without damage, otherwise rotary adapters with a maximum RPM and bandwidth ratings would not be a thing.

          • Rob H

            It’s solely the wires’ physical properties that effect how many rotations you can make before it breaks so why are you saying suspending has any impact on it? You can make exactly the same number of rotations suspended or not with the same cable, it makes no difference what so ever. As for limitations based solely on the cables number of viable rotations, not that I can imagine a room scale game being designed where you’re required to turn endlessly in one direction only, but say even if you were…with the length of the wires involved with these hmds you’d probably be able to make at the very least 20 (it’s probably much larger than this number) 360 degree turns in a single direction before risking ‘breaking’. But the fact is you’re never going to be required to do that in a game designed for it anyway so what’s the issue??? Also, rpm means ‘revolutions per minute’ and bandwidth the amount of data transferable along a wire, neither of which have any relevance what so ever to the situation. Plus, as you rightly pointed out, even if the wire wasn’t capable of withstanding such torsion (not that this would ever make it past quality control of a $800 product) you can always pick up a rotary wire adapter.

          • Rob B

            “so why are you saying suspending has any impact on it?”

            I never did.
            If you actually read posts instead of merely used this website as a means of insulting people you would realize that.

            “not that I can imagine a room scale game being designed where you’re required to turn endlessly in one direction only, ”

            Imagine a game where you march forward in an apparently straight line, subtly redirected in a circle, such as implemented in The Void, for example. That does not work in a tethered setup.
            Nor does a 2 person setup in a small living room environment.
            This is the part where with any maturity you would reply “Oh, valid point. I see know how the OP was correct in claiming a tethered solution isn’t a proper room scale experience.”
            However, dollars to donuts, you will ignore this and go off on some tangent on my grammar or whatever else you can claim ‘Aha!’ over.

            “Also, rpm means ‘revolutions per minute’ and bandwidth the amount of data transferable along a wire, neither of which have any relevance what so ever to the situation.”

            Of course it does. The tether is conveying extremely high bandwidth information, so not just any rotational adapter will do.

            “you can always pick up a rotary wire adapter.”

            So what happened to your $5 ceiling hook solution for anyone ‘with a functional brain’.
            Rotary wire adapters are expensive, and don’t work with HDMI cabling for starters.

            Its okay that you don’t know these things.
            Its just maddening that you come in here, shooting off your mouth calling everyone ‘idiots’, ‘lacking a functional brain’, ‘would know that in any physics lab’ etc.
            That just makes you an insufferable dolt.

          • realtrisk

            Also well said! :)

        • yag

          Lol your “functioning brain” never heard of friction ? Physics is a bitch :)
          You should know that all sort of hook systems has already been tried (see reddit/oculus), and guess what, it doesn’t really work if you are not stationnary (so yes, this kind of system is only good for the Omni and other Vituix).
          Of course you will tell me than you’re smarter than all of these people, so good luck with your ceiling hook ^^’

          • Rob H

            So the problem is you actually don’t understand physics? Out of all the things you could have said are its problem, friction is not even close to being one of them. I think you may need to go back to primary school lol. And that’s it, use reddit, the worlds epitome of intelligence as your only resource to say someone tried it and failed. Like are you for real? Take a look at this, it’s already been done somewhat successfully: https://forums.oculus.com/viewtopic.php?t=5392 and that’s far from an ideal setup, but it works none the less. Also, omni and vituix don’t solve the problem of torsion which is the only real unlikely downfall of an overhead system, only both the ‘treadmills’ you’re suggested are horrendous and have a distinctly unnatural feeling to use. Funnily enough, katwalk looks the most promising and just look at how they’ve approached the matter! But please feel free to try and make some sort of an argument that looks like you did something more dribble on your keyboard.

    • Syphur

      Oculus had stated that they could achieve room scale by adding another camera to the setup and positioning it similar to lighthouse. RoadtoVR did an article on this, but since im on my phone, its harder to find and post the link to the article

  • Foreign Devil

    If most games developed for Rift are being developed for a gamepad. . and ALL games being developed for HTV Vive are being developed for their “wands”.. then it is clear which ones will have the most innovative games.

    • Bob

      Yes most games are currently only working with a traditional controller because DK developers did not have access to any other input and motion tracking technology from Oculus. For this reason Valve + HTC have the upper hand in raking in the virtual reality die-hards. The only advantage that Oculus have at this moment is the refined ergonomics and UX of their headset, which is miles ahead of the Vive, the integrated headphones, it’s strong easy-to-use Oculus store and increased number of developers working on pumping out VR games and experiences for the device. Overall I still believe the Rift will succeed over the Vive in the long term simply because it’s more comfortable to wear which is extremely important for any HMD product, and it’s Oculus store in addition to it’s strong and relatively stable developer support and community. The Vive remains questionable in it’s performance over a longer period because it only really exists because Valve was seeking to capitalize on their own technology by partnering with a manufacturing giant such as HTC and have been rushing to get their device out to the public without establishing a strong developer base.

      • Foreign Devil

        Thanks. As I can’t afford both. . I’ll wait for side by side comparisons. I was mainly considering the Rift but being swayed by the VIVE because it represents more what a VR hardware should be doing. .rather than seated with gamepad.

        • Mateusz Pawluczuk

          Yeah I was thinking about the same thing. Only side by side experiences can tell me what I really want to know. How important is spacial audio using Oculus Audio SDK? Is the difference in audio immediately noticable? I want Vive but what will be it’s initial game library and will it keep expanding? How is one camera on Oculus work for standing experiences, when do you lose tracking? And many, many more questions that cannot be answered until both kits are tested through-out.

      • DougP

        Re: ” the integrated headphones, it’s strong easy-to-use Oculus store”
        You really soundlike a Facebook fanboy there Bob.

        Headphones – I already have way better headphones, no thanks – just charging me more for something I don’t need/already have.
        Oculus store – “easy-to-use”, wtf?! Yeah…If only Valve knew something about a *store*, some way of easily selling & distributing software. Seriously?!

        All I’ve seen from the Oculus store is wanting to lock me in & pay higher prices. Are you a Facebook investor or something?

        • Andrew Jakobs

          uhh,, Oculus supports SteamVR, so the complete library for the vive is available for the Oculus, but not the other way round as the Vive ONLY supports SteamVR (not that that’s a problem though as most games will support SteamVR anyway)..
          Why bitch about being locked in at facebook (which isn’t true), but you’re not bitching at being locked by Valve…. talking about being a hypocrite..

          • DougP

            Uhh,, don’t see how your comment changes/negates anything I said.
            Look – Steam is the de facto standard for PC gaming distribution.
            Valve – behind SteamVR.
            Valve has not gone the approach of *exclusives* like Facebook with their headset.

            Key point, I wrote about this:
            “Oculus store is wanting to lock me in & pay higher prices”

            Do you own an Oculus? I do, a Gear VR.

            The very 1st thing that the system did was have me install Oculus home.

            Guess what it did – locked me out of launching Google Cardboard/other Android apps. So when I try to launch them it auto-launches the Oculus home instead & won’t run them!

            On top of that – the same games on Oculus store are either cheap or free on Google play but now I’m locked away from those & forced to pay more.

            I’m commenting from experience here.

            Valve & Facebook have taken 2x different approaches here:

            1) Valve has gone *open* with their SteamVR & standards – heck, they helped Palmer & his crew with moving to an external camera!

            2) Facebook wants to lock you in to their distribution & charge higher prices

            Re: “talking about being a hypocrite..”
            No, not at all.
            For better or worse (most agree better!), Steam is the de facto standard for distribution.
            NOT buying a Rift doesn’t change this. Buying an HTC doesn’t change this.
            “Locked to Valve” – complete BS. I’m buying an HTC headset. They could’ve pulled a Facebook on us & said – we’re gonna push our own store over others, but doesn’t look like that’ll happen.

            1 is open, the other wants to lock you in & charge higher prices. That’s not being hypocritical – that’s being observant.

          • Andrew Jakobs

            oh you really ARE a dumbass… The Oculus Rift IS NOT locked to any facebook store, you also have the complete Steam library (or even others), but you are too stupid to even understand that, because you are soooo f-ing blinded by your facebook hatred..
            Also, just get a specific app, and you can run any google cardboard app on your gearvr..
            And in regard to price, the same goes for the valve store, there are enough games which cost more than on other distribution platforms, but also some are cheaper..
            And for me, when I have to choose between a VR game on the oculus store or steamvr, then it would be steamvr..

          • DougP

            Question:
            Is that you Zuck?
            I happen to actually own an Oculus – yes, it’s design/approach/goal is to lock me in. Or rather “lock me out”. That sucks!

            I speak from experience – you’re apparently too stupid to understand that (experience/facts).

            Re: “soooo f-ing blinded by your facebook hatred..”

            WTF?! Seriously – Zucks, that you?

            Re: “just get a specific app, and you can run any google cardboard app on your gearvr..”
            Again, making crap up.
            A lot of people don’t want to/can’t root their phones – that’s one solution.

            Yes, there WAS an app. Can you provide the readers here to the play store link for it?
            What – no? Because it’s gone/pulled & no longer available.
            AND…on top of that (I still use this said app) – it messes things up so IF you dare to disable the Facebook store-front, just so you can run a play store VR game, you can’t just “turn it back on & start using your GearVR again”. It starts prompting you to re-install the store/apps.

            You have to reset the settings, tell it to install/re-boot before you can get back.
            So besides the app no longer being available, Yeah…real friendly!

            You seriously must work for Facebook – PR department I’m guessing? With all this BS & lies you’re putting out here.

          • Rob H

            Would love to know where you found info that you can run steam vr on the Rift consumer edition. So far Steam VR only has support for their DKs which was updated only last November and that’s likely just to help developers create vr content including those wanting to release on vive.I very much doubt oculus wanting steamvr support when they have their own closed ecosystem they change charge double the price in much like consoles do. They’re trying to go down a route of exclusives and software ‘only on the rift’ but at the end of the day, why on earth when it comes to exclusives would you choose facebook offerings over what valve can potentially offer? Like seriously, if you can link me something confirming you can run steam vr on the cresent bay I’d love to see it.

          • PixeIJunkie

            I think you have it backwards here dude. SteamVR supports Oculus, not the other way around. SteamVR is HMD agnostic.

            You act like Facebook is doing VR fans a favor by supporting SteamVR, when really it is Valve and HTC who have opened the opportunities for all parties to use their store and SteamVR.

            Facebook is the one dealing with exclusive store and titles. Oculus store is not supporting Vive and they already have a handful of exclusive titles, so what is NOT to hate about Facebook here??

          • Andrew Jakobs

            yeah duhhh, ofcourse valve supports other headsets, they make money on every game that sells through their store.. Valve isn’t doing it to be so friendly, it’s in their own interest.. But you’re right, it’s SteamVR that supports the Oculus, and not the other way around.. And it’s not like steam doesn’t have their exclusives which aren’t available on other stores…

        • yag

          I also own pretty good (and pretty big) headphones and wearing them over my DK2 is a pain in the ass… So I will be happy with integrated headphones, if they are as decent as they say.

          • DougP

            I agree some people will be happy with them.
            However, you have to admit most (all?!) of the people buying VR headset already own headphones, probably some that are just as good/better.
            And, again, audiophiles won’t *settle* for something “pretty good.”
            My last thought on the included headphones – I think for full immersion (locking the world out, locking yourself *in* to VR) – over ear is better experience.

            I just see including redundant headphones & an xbox controller – both of which many/most dedicated gamers already own, was a silly move.
            I would’ve MUCH preferred they’d spent that money including:
            1) extra sensor
            2) motion controllers
            3) front-facing camera

          • DougP

            Re: Headsets – “wearing them over my DK2 is a pain in the ass”
            I also own/use multiple VR headsets – DK1, multiple google cardboard, and newest being Oculus GearVR.
            Personally, haven’t had issues using my preferred cans.
            Just speaking from my experience.

          • yag

            For a lot of peole, wearing headset + headphones feels like wearing a big helmet… Not very comfy. Headphones are also annoying if you have to often retire your HMD.

          • DougP

            You do know that you’re not *required* to wear large headphones with the Vive, right?
            As a matter of fact, it comes with earbuds.
            I have, as many do, a lightweight over-ear bluetooth headset that also works fine. It’s good to have choice, and utilize what most all of us already have.
            For me, I prefer the sounds fidelity of my larger over-ear cans – to each his own on what they choose.
            I just don’t want to be charged for something I don’t need & won’t use.

          • yag

            “You do know that you’re not *required* to wear large headphones with the Vive, right?”
            I know, but good headphones are often pretty large.
            Another annoying thing is having to retire them before each time you need to retire your headset, and vice-versa. But people may find a way to attach the earbuds to the Vive…

          • yag

            Headset + headphones, you don’t feel like wearing a huge helmet ?
            Headphones are also annoying when you have to retire frequently your HMD.

    • Rob Walker

      Hand controllers are just an input device
      If a dev is going to do a room scale game then it will be for both Oculus and Vive, they just need to support both sets of hand controllers. Its no different to dev creating support for 6x steering wheels to support Forza.

    • Andrew Jakobs

      Except, for the ‘roomscale’ enjoyment of the HTC vive, you’ll need pretty much clear space… And there aren’t that many consumers who have the space for enjoying that ‘roomscale’ VR.. You’ll need at least 2x2meters free space, good luck finding that in most regular homes..
      Most consumers will use their VR headset seated or in treadmill based enviroment.. Also we still haven’t heard how much Oculus touchcontrollers are gonna cost..

      • user2

        i think its 1.5 x 2 meters and thats not that rare.

        • Andrew Jakobs

          I said at least 2x2m, have you ever tried to move in a 2×2 space? that’s already very confining and no real movement possible.. 2x2m means you can stand en turn a bit (and using you hands/motioncontrollers), but you cannot actually walk in any direction, for that you need a much larger space..

          • user2

            i know. its pretty obvious. but its still nice to have. and once you get a bigger room, you can extend it with the same system.

          • I was very skeptical about room-scale practicality, and was put off and annoyed by Valve’s “get rid of your kitchen table” comment. After managing to get a 1.5x2m space (min necessary for SteamVR to allow room-scale experiences) working in several relatives’ houses and even small apartments while visiting for the holidays, I was convinced that it actually would work. No, my family isn’t rich – a few of them do flip burgers and live in minimal apartments, but they still had enough room for the Vive. If you’re in a big city where 400 sq ft costs $1500/mo, though, those sorts of situations do cull room-scale’s viability.

            A 2×1.5 space is enough to dodge (Raw Data), and to manipulate stuff at arm’s length in every direction (Job Simulator), or walk around an object in the center of the room (Fantastic Contraption, Aperture Robot Repair).

            Also to keep in mind is that you can push the limits a little bit. Few Vive games require you to pick stuff up that’s on the ground AND against the wall – I’ve set it up before with the virtual wall going a bit *past* a couch or bed in order to hit the minimum space requirement. Those setups worked fine overall.

  • Surykaty

    This round definitely goes to Htc&Valve.. Better and futureproof tracking, no cables for the lighthouse to the pc needed (as opposed to rift tracking camera) – i think i heard lighthouses could also be battery operated which is cool, 2 rad controlers with games already built for them, an image that comes very close to the quality of rift, front camera for the awesome chaperone system, and in the end almost equal price to rift + touch.. oh and advantage Gaben.. Vive FTW!

    • TruB

      “Better and futureproof tracking”
      You are missing one thing though, Cameras like those Oculus are using can be used like kinect, they can track individual limbs like legs and arms, the room itself, people pets inside the room, same as the front facing camera on the vive, but it could always be on, playing multiplayer your arms and legs could always be right, not just when you are looking.

      • user2

        but do they do that? i thought they only track controllers which have built-in tracking hardware.

      • Shaw Walters

        That’s not true. The CV1 camera doesn’t emit a structured light matrix and it has an IR filter, so its not of much use for anything except for tracking the CV1 and Touch.

        • TruB
          • Rob H

            Yep, i think he’s pretty sure. That’s not an emitted structured light matrix nor a CV1. Do you even know what you’ve posted a picture of?

          • Shaw Walters

            That’s an Intel RealSense camera.

            The CV1 / DK2 camera is basically just a webcam with an IR filter on it. Its designed to track the IR LEDs in the headset and ignore everything else.

          • TruB

            I bet you know more than me about this, but even if its not that simple Leap Motion uses IR for its tracking, right?

            I don’t know about CV1s camera, but Oculus could add cameras in the future that can do both.

          • Shaw Walters

            Leap Motion emits IR light and then tracks the reflection off anything it hits in a near radius with a wide FOV stereo camera. The resulting image looks a lot like what you posted, re: the RealSense, although from what I’ve seen RealSense is much more like a Kinect or Structure sensor.

            Thie leap does what is generally called “blob tracking” in computer vision software. The leap motion’s magic is in the code, it uses some very tricky algorithms to figure out hand position

            While some people have used passive retroreflectors (like the shiny balls in mocap suits) with the Leap, by and large it’s only good at hand tracking, and the range is only about good enough for what’s right in front of you. It’s also relaticely sensitive to sunlight.

            In general, inside out solutions are ideal, especially with the rise of mobile. Lighthouse is a step in the direction of something that could eventually go mobile, while that will never happen with Oculus Constellation.

      • kalqlate

        Lighthouse can track anything you put sensors on: http://www.roadtovr.com/valve-shows-off-miniscule-lighthouse-sensors/.

        • TruB

          Same with the rift, except more expensive.

          • Rob H

            Lol, how is it more expensive? You literally stick a sensor on it and you have a tracked 3d point in space with lighthouse whereas optical tracking doesn’t work like that at all. You have to put an in-fared emitter on the device that a camera has to detect which is more expensive, less accurate and needlessly complicated in comparison.

            edit: sorry, i thought you were stating lighthouse was more expensive but i think i might have just misread it.

          • TruB

            Again you make a fool of yourself.. Vive uses sensors and every thing you want to track need to, by it self, need communicate that positioning data, while Rift which uses led lights and nothing else. Go figure.

          • Rob H

            Do you have any idea how this stuff works at all? You don’t just stick an infared led on it and it magically works. If this were the case then expect every game to break when someone presses a tv remote anywhere near you when you’re playing on the rift. Once you’ve attached the new emitters you then have to spend all your time programming it to track this new light-source by telling the system what it is, how to differentiate it from other infared led lightsources, how to track it’s position accurately in a 3d space with only 1 sensor andd all this all from what’s simply a camera with a filter on. Good luck with that. With Lighthouse you literally just stick another sensor on and that’s it. This then relays realtime positional information to the pc ready for it to use. Far easier, far simpler, far more accurate and far cheaper.

          • TruB

            You seem to have trouble follow a conversation, how can you expect anyone talking to you if you are going off the rails all the time?

            ” With Lighthouse you literally just stick another sensor on and that’s it”
            Several, still true.., BUT.. like I said in the post you responded too.. Rift do the same just cheaper.. What is it you don’t get?

          • Rob H

            Wow, so you actually do just live a a fantasy world were you think things magically work. When you have a basic fundamental understanding of how the 2 tracking systems differ (i suggest you use google) then come back and talk about it. Until then stop showing yourself up by pretending to know anything about either. Seriously, if you think the rift is cheaper, you haven’t got a clue how it’s tracking actually works.

          • TruB

            I did a google search for “Rob H is stupid”, that enriched my life greatly, Thanks.

          • Rob H

            Wow, can’t even bring yourself to admit you’re just plain wrong and that’s your pathetic attempt at some sort of ‘come back’. Back you were top of your class in school…

          • TruB

            But I’m not, plain or otherwise. Do you want to admit something?

          • Rob H

            Like seriously, try googling how each tracking system works and go educate yourself.

          • TruB

            Sure buddy, you are really so nice thinking about my education, This has been mildly entertaining though, and this will be my last respons. bye

          • Rob H

            Np, everyone deserves a good education, but just because you were neglected one doesn’t mean you can’t teach yourself now :) We both know the only reason it’s your “last response” is actually just because you can’t provide any form of logical argument to back up what you say simply because it isn’t true (and there’s plenty of evidence against it to prove that). But lets pretend it’s just because you don’t want to continue the conversation for some other unknown reason if it makes you happy :) I’m kind of disappointed it’s only been “mildly” entertaining for you to be proven wrong – here’s to hoping next time you’ll find it more enjoyable :)

          • Shaw Walters

            Hate to drop into the middle of this…

            but the optical tracking system is inferior, for a number of reasons. Will it work perfectly fine for what you and most people are trying to do? Yeah. Will you be able to run two Oculus side by side? Probably not, at least not without a firmware update. I don’t know all the details of the constellation, but typically its a synced thing – the computer queries the position of light 1, light 1 flashes, the camera sees it, then queries light 2, etc. That way it knows which is which and can build a model. The other strategy is a rigid body tracking method — where the camera does the math and figures out the shape of the infrared constellation to figure out what position you’re facing.

            Either way, outside-in tracking methods have some flaws. So do lighthouse, for what its worth. I have a conference room with a glass wall — it freaks the lighthouse tracking out. The constellation would theoretically be more resilient to reflection.

            None of this matters. They’re both good devices. The Vive gives you more bang for your buck, since it comes with the Lighthouse and wands, and will probably cost a little less than what a retail Touch and headset will cost. The Oculus seems to be engineering for more comfort and less weight. The Vive has a tracking camera that will keep you from bumping into stuff, which is HUGE for a comfortable room-scale experience.

          • TruB

            Agreed, except I think the rift is more of a quality product in comparison. Not just lightness, but also things like integrated Audio and the lenses. If room scale is most important than you should for the Vive.

            I have interest in room scale, but for one, its less important, and I think the rift can do it good enough, which I will test first hand when I get it.

            and btw, Rob H is a troll if you haven’t realized that.

          • Shaw Walters

            I dunno. We just got the new Vive Pre in, and it’s amazing. The kindof experiences I’m interested in — developing for VR *in* VR especially, and experiences like Tilt Brush and Fantastic Contraption– they can’t be done on Oculus, at least not until next February.

            The screen on the Rift and the Vive are comparable. You would have a difficult time telling one from the other.

            If you just want a better XBox experience, sure, Oculus is great. As a wearable hardware maker I have the utmost respect for the Oculus mechanical engineering team, and it’s a sleeker product. I think Touch is gonna be great, Toybox already looks great.

            But at the end of the day, why would I wait a year when I can start developing experiences in Unreal in VR right now?

            Vive has positioned themselves as the developer’s choice, hands down, and it will take Oculus a while to catch up since HTC just gave a ridiculous number of Vive Pres away for free to the dev community. Oculus seems to be going straight for the hardcore PC gamer crowd, people who want to play the AAA titles coming out right now which weren’t made for VR but will be adapted late in their development cycle. A lot of us see games as sort of a distraction from the greater potential for VR, especially social and communications, and the Vive is at a significant advantage for that stuff in the near term, because of Lighthouse and the built-in headset camera.

          • TruB

            “they can’t be done on Oculus, at least not until next February.”
            Feb? are you talking about when the rift controller comes? they are planned for H2 this year, which is between july and dec. So unless you expect a delay, which is more likely to happened to Vive, then thats wrong.

            “But at the end of the day, why would I wait a year when I can start developing experiences in Unreal in VR right now?”
            Im no developer, not a official one at least, I worked with 3d animation/design for many years, and do know programming, but I have no intention developing, however, I don’t mind waiting, Rift dk2 for me is great and I can wait till the touch controllers come, no problem. Ive been waiting for this since Carmacks first Tweet about Palmer, and I am not planning to get both even though I have no problem doing that, I can wait little longer.
            I actually did the same with the CV1 as with the DK2, I waited to let others get theirs first, because I’m no kid who must something right now, mine comes in May.

            Btw, Medium and any other application like Zbrush and Maya, in VR will be of interest to me. Tilt Brush looks interesting but flat sprites makes it less so. and btw, Unreal VR builder is not ready for Prime time, Its way to slow for any serious developer to consider, in its current state.

            “Vive has positioned themselves as the developer’s choice, hands down, and it will take Oculus a while to catch up since HTC just gave a ridiculous number of Vive Pres away for free to the dev community. ”
            Good move, although Oculus have given away several themselves to those who shown something on Oculus share, right developers to get one is more important than lots of them. I doubt there is some catching up to do.

            “Oculus seems to be going straight for the hardcore PC gamer crowd, people who want to play the AAA titles coming out right now which weren’t made for VR but will be adapted late in their development cycle.”
            so what? if it works it works, Im not interested in VorpX, but Eve valkyrie and Elite seems to be working great for VR.
            DCS works really great too, even though I get some graphics issues in menus, lots of controls to try map on to limited number of buttons on my joystick.

            ” A lot of us see games as sort of a distraction from the greater potential for VR, especially social and communications,”
            This is usually the main point I bring up whenever I talk about VR.
            But I am also interested in new video 3d capture for movies and live events. Will have big impact in the future.

            “and the Vive is at a significant advantage for that stuff in the near term, because of Lighthouse and the built-in headset camera.”
            I don’t see this, sounds liked forced point. I can both stand/walk with DK2 If i set it up for it and be social sitting down.

          • Shaw Walters

            Having tried both, I think that they are both good headsets. The Vive comes with controllers. The Oculus doesn’t, and won’t until 6 months after both headsets have reached the market. I just can’t run people through experiences using a mouse and keyboard or an XBox controller.

            You’re kind of doing the fanboy thing and arbitrarily defending one against the other. They’re both good, but the Vive is at a significant advantage because of the wands.

            I don’t know if you’ve tried the Vive Pre, but I’m lucky enough to be one of those developers that got one, and I can tell you — its awesome. It feels a lot better than the first Vive, out of the box it comes with great content and its a very clean, professional design and experience from the minute you open the box. While I have a special place in my heart for fabric, the industrial design of the Vive is not trivial.

            The camera in the headset can’t be dismissed. It keeps you from bumping into and tripping over stuff, which adds significantly to your immersion– knowing that you aren’t going to faceplant into a wall or trip over the ottoman.

            Have an open mind. Try both. Buy the one that suits your needs.

          • TruB

            “You’re kind of doing the fanboy thing and arbitrarily defending one against the other. They’re both good, but the Vive is at a significant advantage because of the wands.”

            I don’t disagree but I do think I can say the same about you. Like you saying “significant advantage”, If you said advantage in this case I wouldn’t not think of you as a fanboy, but you had to add “significant” thats sounds like bias (fanboyism). Extra importance, that is in fact your opinion but represented like some general “rule”.

            Another thing is, rift will come first, but vive gets controllers first, you value the other thing more. You have to wait for the one thing or the other and you bring one thing up as a point, while you could easily say something similar about both, It doesn’t matter overall, its just a opinion. There will be games working with the Rift without touch, and there will be games that don’t work, but at some point in the near future they will work.

            Its a bit annoying that you seem think you above bias, and you have more or less added to each response that both products are good which ever you take, which I completely agree with. But since you done it several times it feels to me you do it to hide the fact that you are biased, and adding that vive is better for some, what i think is a, arbitrary reason.

            To each his own.

            I have preordered Rift, and I’m sticking with it, I have no intention to get the vive, I have engaged in conversations here because people seem to think that Vive is superior in every way, it has advantages, but so does the Rift, and people cant seem to grasp that, its like, Blue = bad, Red = Good.

            Just trying to add balance, but call that fanboyism if you like.

            “The camera in the headset can’t be dismissed. It keeps you from bumping into and tripping over stuff, which adds significantly to your immersion– knowing that you aren’t going to faceplant into a wall or trip over the ottoman.”
            “Significantly” I have to take your word for it. I do believe the chaperone system, which I don’t think really don’t need a camera is used to avoid walking into walls, which works for the rift, both on a technical level and with SteamVR.
            Yes, it has a camera, advantage, Will I miss it? Doubtful.

          • brandon9271

            Vive has the superior tracking system. For one reason because it’s inside-out. You could have 10000+ sensors each with it’s own ID and each would know what its place in 3D space. If you try that with optical, outside-in tracking it would fail. I’m not sure how many LEDs the Rift system can track but its not limitless. Sure, it’s enough for the HMD and Touch controllers but can two people play in the same room each with a full setup? Can more IR LEDs be added for full body tracking ? With Lighthouse you’re practically limitless, not so with Rift.

          • TruB

            sure limitless, but your two scenarios is very unlikely for any users, However, if you were to build a something like a laser dome map, Like the void, you could use a system like the vive, thats a real viable use.

            “Can more IR LEDs be added for full body tracking ?”
            yes, with less expense. LEDs are cheap.

          • brandon9271

            But how many can it handle before it gets confused? How is it determining which is which? I assume some sort of strobing pattern. This strobing would be limited by the cameras refresh rate. Also, the farther away from the camera you get the lower the precision and accuracy of the motion.

          • TruB

            “But how many can it handle before it gets confused? How is it determining which is which? I assume some sort of strobing pattern. This strobing would be limited by the cameras refresh rate.”
            None of us know this, but maybe “enough” is the answer to this?

            “Also, the farther away from the camera you get the lower the precision and accuracy of the motion.”
            Same with lighthouse.

          • veritas

            For each added Constellation camera sensor, you need one USB 3.0 port. That is why Oculus Rift’s recommended system is 3 USB 3.0 ports and 1 USB 2.0 port, and 8 GB not to mentioned taxing on CPU, latencies and price. Vive just need 1 USB 2.0 port and 4 GB. You need to do more research…

          • TruB

            whut? You don’t need to add more cameras just because you add more things to track. One camera can track multiply things you know. You may need more cameras to fight occlusion but that has nothing to do with how about adding things to track which we were talking about.
            And if you think rift somehow requires more cameras than the vive you are wrong about that too.

            and just a fyi, I have 6 usb3 on my VR system, 4 usb2 and thats without expansion card. 8 Gig what? ram? what about that?
            taxing on cpu? 1-2% really?

            “You need to do more research…”
            No you.

          • veritas

            From the horse’s mouth himself:

            http://uploadvr.com/oculus-rift-room-scale-setup-confirmed/

            And please read the entire article including the Update. Palmer said he was going to use 4 sensors (camera) during E3 for room-scale.

            Here is the update:

            UPDATE: Palmer Luckey took to reddit to say that there are in fact occlusion issues with this particular setup, and reiterated that room scale type experiences aren’t going to be a go to, calling them a “fantasy that few games will utilize.”

            See the full quote here:

            “Nope. Still has issues with occlusion during many interactions.

            We considered showing four sensors at E3, but decided to go with the stock Touch bundle of 1+1 instead. We want to honestly market the setup most people will actually have, not a fantasy that few games will utilize. Most software will not take full advantage of motion capture style many-camera rigs, as cool as they are for hardcore enthusiasts. Same goes for things like subwoofers, fans, and motion platforms.”

      • Rob H

        Not sure what fantasy world you come from but here on earth Oculus tracking isn’t even close to being able to do any of those things. All it can do atm is track the hmd and touch controllers and it does that in a roundabout way compared to lighthouse. Optical tracking is the inferior technology atm as it’s not quite ready yet and we’re still not even close to getting there. Oculus have admitted this when asked why they opted for optical tracking and said it’s because it will eventually become the better option due to the possibilities in the future so they’re adopting it from the ground up, but when it does catch up it’s not hard for lighthouse to be fitted with a camera instead. For the next couple of years lighthouse will likely be the better option and when it is outclassed by optical tracking, vive 2 and a bunch of other tier 2 quality hmds will be being released if not already out there.

        • TruB

          “become the better option due to the possibilities in the future”
          Read the first sentence to the post you replied to.

          I also followed Oculus since before it was thing. and I have a Rift dk2 and a preordered Rift CV1. Lots of things you just said I don’t agree with.

          • Rob H

            So the real issue is you don’t understand what futureproof means? The laser tracking is more than adequate for its purpose and will remain so for the foreseeable future as there’s no reason it won’t be able to perform its required task 10 years from now. Lets look at optical tracking however – it’s the inferior form of tracking out the 2 and there’s no hard evidence to say it is ever going to outperform laser tracking in the future either, it’s just what people assume. Therefore out the 2, lighthouse is the futureproof option. It’s the better option now and will be for quite some time. No doubt when(/if) optical tracking does catch up which is years if not decades off, the cameras in the Oculus tracking device won’t be good enough and will have to be replaced.

          • TruB

            ehm, no.

          • Rob H

            Well at least you’re admitting you didn’t know what it meant…

      • veritas

        No! You are misinformed. For positional tracking, HTC/Valve Vive’s light house system is superior to Oculus Rift’s Constellation camera system in every way. You are confusing positional camera tracking with motion capture camera tracking. If Rift wants to do motion capturing tracking, it needs a Kinect-like camera system. Cameras are terrible at tracking motions as distance increases. That is why Kinect 2.0 for Xbox One failed miserably. If Vive wants to track limbs, just add elbow pads, knee pads, and gloves since light house tracking system is very expandable.

        • TruB

          “No! You are misinformed. For positional tracking, HTC/Valve Vive’s light house system is superior to Oculus Rift’s Constellation camera system in every way. ”
          Shows how much you know..

          “You are confusing positional camera tracking with motion capture camera tracking. If Rift wants to do motion capturing tracking, it needs a Kinect-like camera system.”
          You can pretty much use any kind of camera for motion tracking you know.. / I worked with camera tracking for music videos like 10 years ago, the concept have changed, just better software today and faster computers.

          “Cameras are terrible at tracking motions as distance increases.”
          Depends on resolution, but please tell me how vive is different here because you know, accuracy also dips the further away you get.

          ” That is why Kinect 2.0 for Xbox One failed miserably.”
          Kinect tech was not mature when it was released, thats why it failed.
          It still isn’t, but you pretty much use any cellphone camera to track things if you like, you need good software and a fast cpu, that is taxing btw.

          “If Vive wants to track limbs, just add elbow pads, knee pads, and gloves since light house tracking system is very expandable.”
          Same with the rift, and again, rift is less expensive since it only adds a battery and lights, while vive needs more expansive sensors, a way to communicate (like bluetooth) and a battery, On every thing you add.
          So I would argue Rift is more expandable, than your “superior in every way” system.

          • realtrisk

            Well said!

    • yag

      IMO the Rift slightly wins : less expensive (not everyone needs/wants motion contollers), more comfort, better image (and if you own a DK2, you know how comfort and image quality are important).

      • Rob H

        For any vr that’s upwards of £100, you’re going to want motion controllers as that’s what is required for real ‘immersion’. There’s no point in spending over that for something google cardboard/gear vr can provide you instead. Also, the image quality is the same if not better for the vive now due to the improvements they’ve made to the pre and consumer release. As for comfort, i’d like to see where you found any reference to the rift being more comfortable than the vive as i’ve tried both and had no problems with either. Not many people have tried each for a long enough period of time to even be able to comment on the matter with any real experience. Also, the rift isn’t cheaper – motion controllers cost extra, you’ll have to buy another optical sensor too if you want full tracking in the future and then the most important part – the price software is going to be in a closed wall facebook controlled store that has to make $2 billion just break even. There’s also modding potential for steam vr stuff in the future with things like steam workshop already available and much unlike the road Oculus seems to be taking with its goal to become the ‘Apple’ of vr, a company known for its closed ecosystem, inflexibility and obscene prices.

        • care package

          I can’t believe you just compared to the Rift to gear vr/google cardboard. No head tracking for one w/ cell phone headsets, but you aren’t going to see near the same demanding sort of games and frame rates. Apples and Oranges.

          • Syphur

            “Apples to Oranges? Why cant fruit be compared?!”
            – Lil Dicky

        • realtrisk

          Wow, all this time I’ve been using the DK1 and DK2, and apparently haven’t gotten any ‘immersion.’ I’m sure glad you are here to make blanket proclamations like that.

          • Rob H

            I take it from that comment you’ve also not used motion controllers in vr before and don’t know the difference between ‘real immersion’ and a ‘sense of immersion’. Even the vive & cv1 aren’t even close to achieving true immersion, however, they’re a step closer. While you can play games in vr without motion controllers it’s makes your hmd into nothing more than a what’s essentially a fancy 3d screen. Motion controls (either like we have at the minute or body tracking in the future etc.) are required for true immersion (unless the game requires zero input from the likes of controllers obv but that’s extremely restrictive to developers). This is why all 3 of the leading hmd manufaturers and using them with their product, htc vive ships with its own, rift has touch, psvr has move. It’s the whole reason these hmds have been able to claim they solved motion sickness in vr simply by tracking movement real life movement and relaying it in game in real time hence why both require head tracking at the very least. I don’t know a single person that’s used motion controllers in vr then would be satisfied with just using a controller instead.

          • realtrisk

            Yay. Woohoo. Rob H the retard knows everything. I’m not even going to argue with you, I can see from your multiple rambling posts that you’re far too stupid.

          • Rob H

            You’re “not going to argue with me” because you have nothing to argue. Just because you’re all salty because you realised you’re wrong and can’t think of anything to back up any ‘argument’ you have isn’t my problem. Sorry if logic, facts, experience and evidence are things you think are ‘retarded’ and ‘stupid’. You’re just another insecure person that can’t bring themselves to admit when they’re wrong so pretend like it’s their choice not to say anything more like that’s going to prove anything but how pathetic their ‘argument’ was in the first place xD

          • realtrisk

            Yep, that’s totally it, Retarded Rob. You’ve beaten me down with your incredible ability to make things up. Keep truckin’, RR. Keep wasting time typing huge walls of text that nobody will read.

          • Rob H

            You seriously think that’s a “huge walls of text”? It’s 4 sentences o.O Also, I’d love to know what you think I’ve “made up” just because your little head can’t accept facts? It literally amazes me just how pathetic some people really are that instead of just replying with a structured argument like a normal human being, you actually believe posting irrelevant comments like that does something other than make you look like a complete dribbler. Oh god, this makes 5 sentences so I’m sorry if this takes you a week to read, but no doubt you’ll just skip that part anyway and brag about your apparant illiteracy xD

          • realtrisk

            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up! Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!

          • Rob H

            Nice structured, relevant points as ever. Please do continue to show the world how you’ve overcame your limited mental capacity and are able to master the use of a keyboard against all the odds. Maybe next time you might actually think of something more productive than that of an infant in primary school.

          • realtrisk

            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!
            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!

          • Rob H

            I was at least hoping for something original but apparently even that’s too difficult for you :( one quick question: have you ever seen someone post something like you just have and be anything other than a sad, salty little kid?

          • realtrisk

            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!
            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!

          • Rob H

            I actually feel sorry for you now :( Am I actually talking to a 5 year old?

          • realtrisk

            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!
            Retarded Rob! Go! Go! Retarded Rob! Pick it up! Pick it up!

          • Love your comments man xD

        • yag

          “you’re going to want motion controllers”
          Dude, don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you… Some people are only playing race sims or flight sims, some other people are not even interested in gaming ! (Think of VR theatre, VR tourism, social stuff…).
          It has been repetidly reported than the CV1 is lighter, more confortable and have a better image(even if slightly).
          And comparing the rift with cardboard… You can’t be a serious person.

          • Rob H

            No i said for vr thats upwards of $100 you’re going to want motion controllers. Gear vr has a better screen for watching films in vr, vr tourism, and social stuff, as gear vr has a higher dpi screen for it too so films etc will actually look better on it. As for people that only play racing and flying sims they too can stream the content to gear vr and it’s very good (i’ve been doing it since s6 gear innovators edition) with the only downfall of it is when you play things other than that – And that’s where oculus and vive exceed…only oculus is still limited to an immersion breaking controller even though its $500 more! So for the sad fucks that ONLY play racing and flying sims, go ahead, spend $500 you don’t need to and I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. Don’t pretend that the other 99% of non sad people don’t want something better than limited to seated simulation type games with limited controls. If that’s what vr was relying on, i’d be dead in the water after a couple of months. Also what sad fuck with a pc capable of running vr ONLY plays simulation games?

          • yag

            Okay riiiight.. I think the only “sad fuck” here is the one showing a total lack of understanding and empathy.
            Bye.

          • Rob H

            Yeh because lack of understand and empathy is directly related to being sadder than someone who, despite the countless different games and experiences out there, sits at home limiting themselves to ONLY simulation games.

          • yag

            Yes, such total lack of empathy and self-centered attitude is close to autism. You can’t have normal conversation with such people (look at all your “attempts” to “discuss” with people, it always end the same, sad, way).
            So that’s why I’m finished with you here.

          • Rob H

            We both know the only reason you’re finished here is cos your ‘argument’ is pathetic. And saying others have autism when you’re the one crying over comments on the internet? Get a fucking grip

  • lanthas

    Any news on the price in euro? Is the case of the Rift with its $600 €700 going to repeat itself?

  • HOLY ****! And I thought Oculus was pushing their luck at $600. Did I miss an economic upturn somewhere? Do the rest of you suddenly have more money and I wasn’t aware? That HUGE salary increase has missed me. Things are tough and you need at least a new $1200 computer to go with it.

    You know, if GearVR just gets a head-tracking/hand-tracking solution and overcomes overheating, it’s going to leave these costly beasts in the dust. I’ve been using it with the G6 phone for the last few weeks, and it’s quite a powerful bit of kit. The cellphone companies subsidise much of the cost, there’s no complicated software issues to be worried about, and the graphics power is actually quite impressive for a tiny handheld device.

    I was thinking of aiming my game development squarely at the Vive, but now I’m thinking GearVR is where it’s at. Come on Carmark, make mobile head tracking a reality!

    • killua

      So you think the inferior tech is where it’s at just because your wallet is small. Maybe you should find a job that doesn’t involve flipping burgers.

      • Jack

        Maybe you shouldn’t be such an a$$h*le.

        • DougP

          Could’ve been put differently, of course, but the OP was pretty extreme with the “economic upturn” & “more money”, “HUGE salary increase” commentary.

          • The OP was simply pointing out the obvious: Between $600 to $800, the bar to entry is painfully high. Would you not agree that $300 to $400 for VR headsets, as originally planned by Oculus, and like, is a FAR CRY from the $600 to $800 we ended up with? Time has yielded better tech, but also a SUBSTANTIAL price hike.

            Or maybe you wish to make some snide remark like “Killua” about how the wealthy should only have VR? I know not everybody has a “Trust Fund”, but maybe most of us find anything over $500 for entertainment to be a bit extreme.

          • Peter

            Everybody will agree when you are expecting (saying) 350 and the price doubles you feel “kind of screwed over”.
            But I feel to the majority of people on sites like these the initial pricing is not their main concern.

            Its like we all want this really bad, and you already accepted you’ll be set back a few thousand; and hearing the final price only makes things a bit more exact on the final numbers.

          • DougP

            Re: “Would you not agree that $300 to $400 for VR headsets, as originally planned by Oculus”
            I’d never heard that Oculus planned a $300 headset.
            I thought that all along people were waiting for the announced production product price & that it never changed because it wasn’t announced prior?

            I think my buddy paid like $350’ish? For his DK1.
            Early tech, discounted to get in hands of devs.
            As the solution developed, and following Valve’s advise & guidance, Oculus added a camera/sensor. Then they added headphones & an xbox controller.
            So knowing $350 was a “give away” (subsidized?) price for dev stuff… having the rest included in production package is not at all surprising or shocking at $600.

            Re: $799 for the Vive
            Again, never heard any comment on price from them, other than “we’re positioning as a premium product”.
            Personally, I think that the all-inclusive package is a bargain compared to Facebook’s headset, which you’d have to add (further):
            1) 2x motion controllers
            2) additional room sensor
            3) usb front facing camera add-on

            Re: “I know not everybody has a “Trust Fund”, but maybe most of us find anything over $500 for entertainment to be a bit extreme.”
            $500 for entertainment is nothing CLOSE to *extreme*.
            How much do you think gaming/movie watching monitors cost? $500 is not extreme for a 2D monitor, much less a 360-degree display+tracking+etc that comes with VR.
            Dedicated gamers don’t blink at spending well north of $500 on a graphics card alone.
            Heck, just buying two xbox elite controllers runs you $300.
            How much for even a mid (not top) tier gaming computer?
            10x AAA-games will run you over $600.

            I don’t have a trust fund. Just a few years ago I would’ve had second thoughts about investing this much in gaming. But it’s not, by any stretch, an *extreme* amount of money (again – see notes above on examples MANY gamers spend lots on).

            Think of it this way – how much were LCD monitors/TVs when they 1st came out? 2K monitors? 4K?

            Instead of complaining, be grateful that the early adopters are *funding* the dev for the cheaper stuff that will follow!
            Their (our) early & gung-ho purchasing at these (very fairly priced, imho) product is why mass market products will be out in a couple of years from a fraction of the price.

            “The fools parting with their money” :) are going to give everyone else cheap VR tech in the future.

          • Rob H

            It’s nothing like a “FAR CRY” in terms of barrier to entry. These devices need a $1000 plus pc to even run on their lowest settings so the percentage increase in terms of barrier to entry for consumer quality hmds is actually relatively reasonable. Obviously everyone wants it to be cheaper but just because you personally can’t afford one doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable. As for only “$500 for entertainment” being “a bit extreme”, have you seen the price of TV’s, monitors, gaming pc’s, consoles, controllers, sound systems, headsets and even games? It’s hardly “extreme”. Rein in the ridiculous exaggerations please.

    • Shaw Walters

      $799 for the headset, controllers and Lighthouse’s is a deal.

      But yeah, the Gear is where its at. Tango integration into the phone will solve head tracking issues and means a wireless experience anywhere with no setup. Compared to the DK2 the Gear has a great screen, but its not up to spec with this consumer generation yet.

      • Oh yah, Project Tango! I hope that tech sees the light of day. The last I heard of it was over a year ago, and nothing since. It’s exciting stuff, I hope something comes of it.

        Right now I’m trying to get my hands on VicoVR, as they seem to have a good solution for Kinect-like phone VR. We need something, be it inside the phone or outside, in order to track position in space. (and I personally need Unreal engine support for my game work)

        As for $800 being a “Deal”, we’ll have to agree to disagree. It’s expensive. There’s no way around it. It’s BRUTALLY expensive for a consumer entertainment toy. It’s 3DO costly (remember that??). I’m certain I’ll shell out for it, as my use case is very extreme, being as I’m in software development. But for the average consumer, it’s definitely a no-go. Wide spread adoption is usually around $300 to $400 at most. I think this horse race falls between GearVR and PSVR (depending on it’s cost).

        • Shaw Walters

          My Sony people tell me that PSVR is gonna be $399.

          Realistically, I think that wired experiences are DOA as soon as mobile GPU gets fast enough to do a good job of it.

          Palmer Luckey and the Vive people have been pretty clear that this consumer model isn’t for everyone. This first generation is for people with the cash to blow on this kind of stuff. If it really is as big as the iPhone, though, in terms of cultural impact, I’m sure it will find its market. In a year, GTXx80s will be a lot cheaper and Gen 2 headsets will bring the cost of the Gen 1 headsets down significantly.

          As someone who works in hardware, I definitely belief that the product warrants the price. I seriously doubt that either Oculus or HTC are making a whole lot of money, building these things is *not* cheap. The Rift has something like 187 parts, all custom, and its a seriously beautiful piece of hardware. I’d imagine that until they get up to scale, its something of a loss leader.

        • Shaw Walters

          Lenovo just announced their new phones are gonna have Tango in it.

          I’ve seen a couple good headtracking ones. One really expensive RF one that could track you accurate up to 50′, I’m forgetting the name… And then STEM. STEM was awesome. Lighthouse is great but it doesn’t work in our conference room with a big glass wall :(

    • yag

      Mobile VR will be great but people will want to play their GTA or Elder Scrolls game in VR so… PC master race.

  • RockstarRepublic

    … The biggest problem I have with it is that they didnt change the design for the consumer version. Aesthetically it feels unfinished.

    I like the phone services concept.

    • Andrew Jakobs

      Yep, it’s an ugly looking headset..

      • Rob H

        That’s a matter of opinion. The only good looking one in terms of design imo is playstation vr. I actually quite like the look of the vive too but its not winning any awards in terms of deisgn. Either way though, it’s far better than the chinese sweat shop look the rift has gone for.

    • user2

      and its still dark. if they want people to put lighthouses on their usually white walls they shouldnt be black. they should blend in as much as possible.

  • Sky Castle

    So it’s far less than the rumored $1,500 and even less than my estimate $1,000. It was a likely buy from me for that price but now it’s a definite buy. I hope the internet doesn’t blow up like the Oculus did and I am able to get a day one preorder.

  • Lars Skinhøj

    Everything comes to those who wait. But it has allways been expensive to a front-runner.. Like every new tec – the price doesn’t reflect the production cost, but what people are willing to pay. And gues what – some are willing to pay 7-800$ for entertainment or corse they “need it” and that is why the price is just right. but in ½ of a year or when PSVR hits the market with big sales, then prices will drop. And when a opgrade comes (and it will soon) then you can get the old tec for half price.

  • Full_Name

    Great news. Considering you get motion controllers and two sensors, plus the headset has a built in camera, I think the price is perfectly reasonable, and a big HAHA to the people that thought this would cost anywhere from $1000-1500

  • Tyrus Gail

    I still prefer Oculus (everything about those HMDs is the same, except that Oc. is now 200 USD cheaper and more comfortable). Noone (aware of what he is doing) will not buy any 2016 HMD to fulfill his VR dream. Those are development tools, just foretaste of VR possibilities. If you do not believe me, stop watching commercials, stop dreaming, go to the store to try it, before you spend your money.

    Both HMDs have cables, so forget about free movement. And about controllers – controller is important but not crucial. I know – you disagree now. But you’ll see. This type of controllers are for casual gaming. If you try to play in something seriously, forget about keeping your hands high. After several minutes you will put away VR controllers and use gamepad/keyboard, because hands will get tired from keeping they high.

    ‘Room experience’ is a toy for a day. Nothing more. For everyday use (and for this amount of money you should buy only everyday-use-stuff) you will be sitting.

  • Tyrus Gail

    I still prefer Oculus (everything about those HMDs is the same, except that Oc. is now 200 USD cheaper and more comfortable). Noone (aware of what he is doing) will not buy any 2016 HMD to fulfill his VR dream. Those are development tools, just foretaste of VR possibilities. If you do not believe me, stop watching commercials, stop dreaming, go to the store to try it, before you spend your money.

    Both HMDs have cables, so forget about free movement. And about controllers – controller is important but not crucial. I know – you disagree now. But you’ll see. This type of controllers are for casual gaming. If you try to play in something seriously, forget about keeping your hands high. After several minutes you will put away VR controllers and use gamepad/keyboard, because hands will get tired from keeping them high.

    ‘Room experience’ is a toy for a day. Nothing more. For everyday use (and for this amount of money you should buy only everyday-use-stuff) you will be sitting.

    • yag

      Dude, don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you…
      The DK1 & DK2 kinda already fulfilled VR dreams of a lot of people (who were realistic and didn’t expected the matrix) and people already played with motion controllers for hours and enjoyed it (never heard of the Razer Hydra and HLVR mod ?).
      Tho I partially agree with you about “roomscale”, it will stay a niche of a niche, and a pretty limited experience until we have wireless HMDs.

    • yag

      Dude, don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you…
      The DK1 & DK2 kinda already fulfilled VR dreams of a lot of people (who were realistic and didn’t expected the matrix) and people already played with motion controllers for hours and enjoyed it (never heard of the Razer Hydra and HLVR mod ?).
      Tho I partially agree with you about “roomscale”, it will stay a niche of a niche, and a pretty limited experience until we have wireless HMDs.

    • yag

      Dude, don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you…
      The DK1 & DK2 kinda already fulfilled VR dreams of a lot of people (who were realistic and didn’t expected the matrix) and people already played with motion controllers for hours and enjoyed it (never heard of the Razer Hydra and HLVR mod ?).
      Tho I partially agree with you about “roomscale”, it will stay a niche of a niche, and a pretty limited experience until we have wireless HMDs.

    • yag

      Dude, don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you…
      The DK1 & DK2 kinda already fulfilled VR dreams of a lot of people (who were realistic and didn’t expected the matrix) and people already played with motion controllers for hours and enjoyed it (never heard of the Razer Hydra and HLVR mod ?).
      Tho I partially agree with you about “roomscale”, it will stay a niche of a niche, and a pretty limited experience until we have wireless HMDs.

      • Tyrus Gail

        Maybe other people have… different brains, or different eyes;), but for me, this resolution breaks ‘sense of presence’ very very fast. Also a lack of peripheral vision. Unsharp image with visible pixels reminds me all the time, that I’ve just put something on my head, and I don’t wanna stay there.

        And I’m afraid (even sure) that consumers dreaming about VR don’t have any idea how bad this image looks comparing to 2D screens. Look at the comments about ‘gear 360’ – ‘ohh what a horrible resolution’ – they don’t have idea that in 2016 HMDs everything looks like that.

        Of course I want controllers – but more for ‘trying’, or some short standing game sessions, not for constant use. And for now it is not worth 200 USD.

        • yag

          Again it’s your opinion dude, a lot of people enjoyed their devkits (no need of “presence” for that) and people in general who tried the DKs were very impressed (despite the crappy image).
          And I’m not too worry about the image quality if they almost got rid of the screendoor effect (ATM a much bigger problem than the resolution).
          Again, not everyone expects the matrix.

        • yag

          Well I know for some peop!e, image quality is very important, more important than immersion or anything else. Well these people should wait for a few more gens of VR headsets. For most people tho. (seeing their very positive reaction to DKs), the advantages of VR will outweigh the relatively low quality image.

          “for me, this resolution breaks ‘sense of presence’ very very fast”
          You know that current headsets are not supposed to give “sense of presence”, right ?

      • Tyrus Gail

        Maybe other people have… different brains, or different eyes;), but for me, this resolution breaks ‘sense of presence’ very very fast. Also a lack of peripheral vision. Unsharp image with visible pixels reminds me all the time, that I’ve just put something on my head, and I don’t wanna stay there.

        And I’m afraid (even sure) that consumers dreaming about VR don’t have any idea how bad this image looks comparing to 2D screens. Look at the comments about ‘gear 360’ – ‘ohh what a horrible resolution’ – they don’t have idea that in 2016 HMDs everything looks like that.

        Of course I want controllers – but more for ‘trying’, or some short standing game sessions, not for constant use. And for now it is not worth 200 USD.

      • Tyrus Gail

        Maybe other people have… different brains, or different eyes;), but for me, this resolution breaks ‘sense of presence’ very very fast. Also a lack of peripheral vision. Unsharp image with visible pixels reminds me all the time, that I’ve just put something on my head, and I don’t wanna stay there.

        And I’m afraid (even sure) that consumers dreaming about VR don’t have any idea how bad this image looks comparing to 2D screens. Look at the comments about ‘gear 360’ – ‘ohh what a horrible resolution’ – they don’t have idea that in 2016 HMDs everything looks like that.

        Of course I want controllers – but more for ‘trying’, or some short standing game sessions, not for constant use. And for now it is not worth 200 USD.

  • yag

    Fair price, but a bit expensive for those who don’t need/don’t want motion controllers…

    • Rob H

      Without motion controllers having an advanced vr headset it kind of pointless. The whole point of VR is to achieve immersion, by using a controller that immediately breaks it and defeats the entire purpose of VR. Selling a hmd like Oculus is doing without first releasing their touch controllers is a massive mistake they’re being forced to make by competitors. There’s plenty of decent even 3d screens that will offer a much better gaming experience than what you’ll get from the horrible feeling of playing in VR and knowing its potential but being limited to a controller.

  • care package

    Really I want the Vive, but the mounted headphones on the Rift are a real selling point for me. I’ve tried headphones with the DK2 and not only does it feel more like your now wearing a full on helmet, I started overheating almost instantly. Weird putting on headphones did that, but that’s when I stopped using headphones and just use the PC speakers. Maybe I’ll just have to get both.

    • brandon9271

      Some third party will probably release clip on headphones for the Vive. I’ve got a $10 pair of Philips earbuds that sound friggin amazing for the price if I dont want to use my studio cans. Headphones aren’t a deal breaker.

  • Jean Thompson

    Well, you can all argue at what HMD is better, but I feel that they are both going to be amazing and I personally will own all three. (Rift, Vive, and PSVR) I’m most excited for Vive because of room scale though. I’ll be pre-ordering it the second it’s avalible.