Vive Standalone Headset Not Likely to Be the Budget Option

Last month Google revealed that it was developing new standalone Daydream headsets with external partners, one of which is HTC who says that their Vive standalone headset will launch sometime in 2017.

While Google alluded that the standalone Daydream headsets would occupy a product tier between smartphone-based mobile VR headsets and high-end desktop-based headsets, the price is likely to fall more toward the latter. Google told us to expect prices “around the same as you have with the desktop VR headsets today—minus the cost of the PC, drilling holes in your wall, and all that kind of stuff.”

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Meanwhile, the cheapest of the big three VR headsets—PlayStation VR—is also the best selling of the bunch.

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  • Ombra Alberto

    Soltanto scuse.

  • DaKangaroo

    “O’Brien elaborated further on HTC’s perspective on the Vive’s price,
    saying that there are certainly price-sensitive customers who are
    looking for the lowest cost option, but there are also ‘value-sensitive
    customers who are willing to pay more if they feel they are getting
    better value out of their purchase;’ the latter is where a large portion
    of VR early-adopters fall, he said.”

    Then O’Brien is a smart guy. Not everything is a matter of price. If it was, no one would want anything but the cheapest computer, the cheapest car, the cheapest GPUs, the cheapest houses, etc. He’s right, right now most people interested in VR aren’t people just looking to tip their toes in the water with something cheap, they’re people who are willing to be lab rats for the VR industry, willing to lay down lots of cash and take the plunge, and want the best experience they can get right now. If he believes HTC is offering that best experience right now, then he’s right to keep the price high.

    It also means, if any competitor comes out with something better, or looks like they will be coming out with something better very soon, if O’Brien keeps to this logic, HTC will drop the price on the Vive immediately to compete on cost instead.

    So Vive price drop = something better coming soon.

    • GigaSora

      Best selling headsets in order:
      Gear VR (The cheapest)
      Ps4 VR (The second cheapest)
      Then Oculus and Vive. Vive was doing better before the price cut. Id be interested to see how thats going now.

      Clearly this is an excuse for the fact that they cant afford to drop the price. Which is unfortunate, but classic business. Facebooks got to much software company money sitting around to compete with. Which is why Vive hopped on board with google and apple. Now its a real fight.

      • Jono

        The Vive has sold almost double the number of headsets as the Rift globally.

      • Jono

        The Vive has sold almost double the number of headsets as the Rift globally.

  • Get Schwifty!

    It’s called “perceived value” which they are attempting to establish relative to Rift by this pricing strategy. The article is written to imply a smaller room scale experience is a significant “lesser” denoting a much higher price on the Vive setup.The problem is the Rift is not a lesser experience, and this is the flaw in the reasoning for these reasons:

    – The article cuts the Rift down for sake of argument by quoting the most conservative estimates for room scale experience which most Rift users with a working system will tell you are a bit smaller than actuality. There is a difference, but most games and even spaces available for users doesn’t hit the outer Vive room scale limits, so the Rift solution, even with a slightly smaller room scale is more than sufficient for the price.

    – The Vive has a new strap to make up for relatively poor ergonomics, the Rift simply doesn’t need it and is therefore actually a better value. OTOH, in typical cell phone maker style rather than simply correct the flaw and go on, a better strap is sold for a premium as an “add-on”.

    – Controllers – same thing is going to apply to the controllers; Rift held them back and got a pretty darn good design that Vive will ape up the point they maintain tracking and use the strap gimmick to claim they one up by having controllers you “can’t drop” and again sell it on top of the existing controllers charging a premium. Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea, but like many of the “features” of Android, its more gimmick for bus stop bragging rights than real meaningful feature difference. For early adopters and the next wave, the cost to get the Vive to its best point vs. Rift will be nearly double the price for better strap, better controllers, etc. ($600 vs. about $1200)

    – And forget wireless, that is a not really necessary for mass market adoption, and will be available for both platforms at relatively the same cost so that is a wash I believe.

    What remains to be seen is if the strategy backfires to an extent; the new semi-enthusiast “next wave” of buyers are not looking for the best possible experience as DaKangaroo suggests below for early adopters, but rather a cost effective best fit for price experience so Oculus pricing and solution fits this (along with content) very nicely.

    The reality is HTC is simply doing what cell phone makers always do; milk the market for slight feature enhancements while charging a premium for it. This will work for the current early adopter crowd to a point that they will throw money at any improvement with the “gimmeh meh techz n0wz” crowd, but that group is relatively insignificant compared to the larger potential market which is truly value oriented and will almost certainly see the Rift as the better price option to experience ratio.

    Again, I am not trying to rack up a Vive vs. Rift discussion, but if HTC thinks that keeping their produce prices at a maximum is a good business decision for anything but the current early adopter wave I suspect they are making a long term error in thinking and could yield significant market to Oculus over time if they are not careful. The current Vive experience is just not that “much better” than Oculus to warrant a nearly double the cost difference for nearly the same experience that can be had on Rift for far less (and with lower computer requirements BTW). Even at current non upgraded strap or controller, the price points for the more general market are very compelling in Rift’s favor.

    • Agreed, the article misrepresents the Rift by presenting the Vive’s marketing without interjecting the reality. The Rift’s play space is actually far more flexible than those outlines, and as you hint at, the Vive’s maximum play space isn’t possible in most homes (doubly so outside the US) – it’s a pointless argument to the typical end user, and only really has value for commercial/arcade installs. There’s also the bundling comment – The Rift has equivalent or better bundles, including the massive game+credit promo going on right now.

      And cables – I was dumbfounded by Phil Spencer using the wires as a major argument against providing VR/MR on the Xbox One X. Cables are the least of VR’s problems in the short term. Wireless will be worked out, but in the meantime not one person I have shown VR gear has complained about the cables as a major problem. The priorities should be price, resolution, optics, comfort and inside out tracking (having the sensors at all is stupid at this point). Those are the things that will really move mass adoption because they will make affordability, installation, comfort, practicality, and portability skyrocket – and notably, begin to make VR properly usable for work as well as play (e.g. virtual workspaces), opening a new market for sales. Yes, parallel to that comes development of wireless and additional input mechanisms, but knowing that despite the cool-factor of room scale that sitting and standing-360 are just more often used, more accessible, and less accident prone, making wireless the primary issue feels like naive marketing.

      Wireless is also not Vive exclusive – every Vive wireless solution so far is developed by third parties and encapsulates the existing connectivity, so it should be easily portable to work with the Rift and other HMDs once it matures.

      • Daemonocracy

        All they’re doing is reporting HTC’s explanation for not cutting the price. I read the article disagreeing with HTC’s reasoning, because the end consumer usually chooses price over perceived value in gaming, but not for a second did I think the author was shilling for the Vive.

    • benz145

      This article is an explanation of how HTC publicly positions their decision to price the Vive at $800; it isn’t meant to be a value assessment between the Rift and the Vive, or an endorsement of their reasoning.

      It also isn’t “written to imply a smaller room scale experience is a significant ‘lesser’ denoting a much higher price on the Vive setup,” nor does it, “cut the Rift down for sake of argument by quoting the most conservative estimates.” All the figures provided in the article are the official figures provided by the respective companies.

      You mention the Deluxe Audio Strap as if the article doesn’t, when it very clearly states: “The biggest improvement so far, however, is surely the Vive Deluxe Audio Strap which is a $100 add-on.”

      You sound like you’d prefer this article to not have been written at all, but I think it’s important and useful for people to have this information available to them, and important to show how and where HTC has put a stake in the ground (because it will be useful for future comparison), whether or not you agree with HTC’s reasoning. And it’s fine for you to disagree with them—that’s why we report information like this, so that you can know it—but point that disagreement at them rather than claiming bias.

    • hyperskyper

      Your bias is easily seen in your comments. Some of your points make sense, but the way you present them is not objective.

      • Bryan Ischo

        He backed up his points with reasoning. You just said things with no attempt to illustrate your point with any facts. His post is more credible than yours.

        • JoeD

          No, he can’t even understand the article.

          • daveinpublic

            Actually, Bryan was right.

    • Sch@dows

      “quoting the most conservative estimates for room scale experience which most Rift users with a working system will tell you are a bit smaller than actuality” <– well, to be honest, the official Vive limitations (5 meter diagonal) in terms of roomscale are also a little too conservative. I do have a little more than 5m, and a friend of mine is almost at 6m withtout encountering any issues.
      But at the same time, most people don't have that much space to play with, and most of the "real" games where you can spend hours on, are games where you just play while being seated.

      For me, I just bought the Vive a few weeks after launch for the roomscale, the controllers, and now that the Rift can offer the same thing, I must say I would still choose the Vive for the "wireless" (apart from power supply) base station. But that's just my opinion.
      I still consider the Rift as being more confortable (didn't test the deluxe audio strap and don't plan to buy it).

      It's strange that, at this point, HTC don't plan to lower their price. I mean, they can think what they want about their price value, the fact his, with VR flaws well known by now, and talks about considerably improved VR next year, I'm not sure there will be tons of people still planning to spend 800$ on a headset this year.

      The next big thing I'm waiting for is mainly wireless headset, and secondly better displays (with fovated rendering).

  • Mane Vr

    htc has to get as much money as they can out of their costumers before all the other hmd comes out mainly the Lg hmd that will be a better steamvr hmd. they’re jumping onto apple because there will be less comp there…

  • NooYawker

    They haven’t lowered the price because unlike Facebook HTC makes its profits from selling hardware.

  • They’ve not lowered the price because lots of people are still drinking the marketing Kool-Aid and paying $200 more for something that offers a couple of benefits over the Rift (a camera and bigger room-scale) but plenty of downsides too (a less comfortable headset, no built-in headphones, worse motion controllers, no free Xbox One controller or remote, far less and generally not as good bundled games, a worse designed and less intuitive Home/UI, and no $100 credit for even more games).

    The Rift is a much better value proposition at this point in time, in so many ways that actually matter, but if people are still going to throw their hard-earned money at HTC/Valve then I can’t blame them for taking advantage of those people.

    I just spent quite a bit less than $100 on some of the best Rift games/experiences (Chronos, AirMech: Command, Edge of Nowhere, Superhot, Titans of Space, and Thumper), and you could get $100 free credit to buy all those games plus one or two more for a Rift if you buy the headset + Touch now, still for $200 less than the Vive; plus you get the many great free games/experiences that are already bundled with the Rift (Robo Recall, Quill, Medium, Dead and Buried, Ripcoil, Dear Angelica, Oculus Video, Henry, Lost, Dragon Front, Minecraft, Toy Box, Farlands), and it also already comes with built-in headphones and has superior motion controllers too, as well as an additional included Xbox One controller and remote bundled at no extra cost.

    If you added all the additional stuff that already comes with the Rift for $600 to the Vive’s current cost, you would be paying roughly $1100 for the Vive (headset, Deluxe Strap with built-in headphones, an Xbox One controller, remote, and a whole crap-load of games, plus $100 store credit so you can get even more games). It would be nearly twice the price of the Rift–just stop and think about that for a second. . . .

    But hey, pay $200 more for the Vive that gives you way, way less for much more.

    • Bryan Ischo

      The moment you included the XBox one controller as a value add to the Rift, you lost credibility. You’re reaching because you really, really want the Rift to be the better buy. The thing is, it’s much more likely to be the dead end due to its clearly less active ecosystem than the Vive’s. So please factor that into your Rift calculations.

      The actual cost of the “Rift competitive” Vive is $900 (because of the deluxe audio strap of the Vive). The actual cost of the “Vive competitive” Rift is at least $660 (because you need that third sensor, let’s not even argue about it, you need it to have any chance of being competitive with Vive tracking). Maybe it’s $700 if you have to buy the 4 meter headset cable (I don’t know how necessary it is as I don’t know how long the built-in cable is, but if it’s less than 4 meters, it’s not Vive competitive).

      OK so yes, the Vive is $900 vs the Rift $660-$700. I am not so familiar with the games bundles of the Vive vs. Rift now but I’ll trust you that the Rift is better.

      There is no doubt that the Rift is cheaper at the moment. However, it is completely false to say that the Vive is 2x the cost of the Rift. More like 50% more.

      But … HTC can charge that premium because people will pay it because they know that the tracking is just better, they know that the Vive hardware development ecosystem is much livelier than the Rift’s, and to some degree they probably feel like they’re betting on the winning horse, which will make their investment more likely to carry value going forward as the ecosystem thrives.

      And also, people really hate Oculus/FB.

      • Tommel

        Maybe you’re right. However, I just don’t believe that they ‘can’ charge that premium price but that they have to. Because the difference between Vive and Oculus isn’t that big and Vive/HTC isn’t Apple (yet). To me, this whole point HTC makes here sounds like an excuse.

        While we are (again) discussing the pros and cons: at least at the moment, I feel like the Oculus software store is way better than Steam (and you can use Steam as well; I know, this is a mean argument). This might change once Fallout is released, but atm Steam feels like an Indie Plattform of VR whereas Oculus has the much more polished games. Only my opinion. Another pro-Vive argument: you are wearing glasses.

      • CURTROCK

        People often hate insanely successful, globally dominating companies. Like Facebook. Microsoft. Apple.

      • Don’t be a total moron:

        The Xbox One controller is literally one of the best standard controllers out there, which many current-gen VR games use (Lucky’s Tale, Edge of Nowhere, AirMech: Command, Dragon Front, Chronos, Thumper, etc), and it costs around $50-$60 normally; it is absolutely adding value to the Rift deal by including it at basically no extra cost–only a complete tool would even suggest otherwise.

        I said that $1100 figure would be the relative price of the Vive if it included all the stuff you get by default with the current standard Rift bundle, which is absolutely true. Do the math: Rift headset + motion controllers (Vive + motion controllers = $800), with a strap that includes built-in speakers (Vive Deluxe Strap = $100), plus an Xbox One controller and a remote (controller is around $50-$60 and remote is probably $5), plus way more games/experiences bundled for free (let’s say all the extra games/experiences are worth about $50 value for now), as well as $100 store credit.

        That is just over $1100 for a Vive with all that stuff vs $600 for a Rift with all that stuff.

        This isn’t rocket science you know.

        HTC can charge a premium precisely because of plonkers like you who don’t have a clue.

        And, it is entirely possible the Vive will end up the winning horse at the end of the race, so if you’re a gambling man then maybe you’d pick the Vive for that reason, but without any kind of unknown speculation the Rift is right now the far, far better value proposition–you’re getting far more for your money, and much/most of it better too–and that’s just a cold, hard fact that is 100% true right here and right now.

        The hating Oculus/Facebook thing is stupid if the actual product and service they are providing is ultimately way cheaper yet also superior overall; and right now it is. Until they actually start doing wrong by the Rift gamers and consumers, which there’s no proof they ever will–not that it couldn’t ever happen, but it simply hasn’t to date–it’s just daft to let yourself get utterly ripped off in the meantime.

      • NooYawker

        the xbox controller is very important to oculus because most of the oculus users don’t have roomscale. Some people think 180 degrees is VR.

        • Actually, according to Oculus itself, the Touch has been bought at a near 1:1 attachment with new Rift headsets at this point:

          https://uploadvr.com/nearly-every-rift-owner-bought-touch-says-oculus/

          And I’m sure plenty of people who bought the headset early also ended up getting a Touch now too, so most Rift owners likely also own Touch and the second sensor as well.

          And “180 degrees*” is VR, as is 360 degrees. Using a standard controller with a VR headset is also VR, as is using motion controllers. It all just depends on the game/ experience. But I can tell you that some of my best VR experiences so far have still been with only “180 degree” VR using an Xbox One gamepad. In fact, VR would be an all-round lesser experience if the only thing it offered was basically room-scale standing experiences with full motion controllers. There’s so much fun you can have seated with a gamepad in VR, and some VR games would just be crap/daft playing any other way (like Luck’s Tale, Thumper, Chronos, Edge of Nowhere, and Dragons Front, and VR cinema for example), so I’m happy we actually have the best of both worlds in one.

          *I’m putting it in air quotes because almost no Rift games are actually limited to just 180 degrees, even if you’re only using two cameras or even a single camera and sitting on the couch.

      • GreasyMullet

        Based on the market today the RIFT is the better value. It not only is on par with the VIVE but exceeds it in some areas… and I am a VIVE fan myself.

        However the long game is where HTC appears to have their real strength. With superior room tracking and the partnerships they have in place right now, I expect that Gen 2 VIVE is going to blow everything away.

        HTC needs to be careful though because while they may want to be the high end VR provider… they are not there yet with Gen 1 and the price needs to come down to reflect that. If any competitor comes out with a more polished system that has the Gen 2 features we all want… HTC will be playing catch up. And even once HTC gets their next product on par, playing catch up is not easy… just ask Oculus…

        • NooYawker

          Will it be the Vive or another company that grabs the golden ring? Whatever company it is, I can bet it’ll be licensing it from Valve.. so in the end.. Valve/Steam will be the big winner.

          • daveinpublic

            Alright, go Valve! Making some money! Why are we routing for a company? Do you route for your favorite peanut butter company, as well?

          • NooYawker

            Normally it doesn’t matter, all companies are publicly traded and only care about stockholders and profits. Like Apple, Google or Microsoft, Samsung they’re all underhanded and care only for profit. Valve does not, privately owned, their business is games run by a gaming nerd. Not concerned with excessive profits or data mining to sell ads. So above all other companies, I want Valve to succeed and lead. Now Gabe could be serial killer for all I know but from what we’ve already seen in the VR market, I’d prefer Valve over Facebook… in fact any company over Facebook. But that’s me.

  • CURTROCK

    TL;DR

    VIVE currently costs $200 – $300 more than RIFT.

    • Bryan Ischo

      TL;DR

      Price isn’t everything.

    • NooYawker

      If a couple of hundred bucks matters that much, you have a shit computer and your VR experience will be shitty to so so anyway.

      • CURTROCK

        Im not sure who a couple/few hundred dollars matters to. I was just summarizing this article.

  • Dev Rifter

    I have both, cv1, and htc vive. Honestly Rift+touch feels like better product, but the difference is like 10%

    • So, 10% better than the Vive, at least in your opinion, at $200 less cost than the Vive too, and with a whole lot more stuff included as standard on top of what the Vive is offering as well.

      Right now the Rift really is the much, much better all-round value proposition.

      • Dev Rifter

        Yeah, However, better deal does not always win the market place. Even if rift looks to be better option it looks like HTC vive might have upper hand with things Like: More devices sold, Developers are not scared of FB, New vive accesoris comming out, Better tracking solution,More chance for usage in arcade Games with its wireless setup as well as for military simulations. Yeah Rift is better but the future looks grim. That might be the reason why the price has gone down. It is not the device itself it is the whole enviroment around it, So much depends on timing and marketing,

        • There’s no objective evidence to support the assertion that the Rift’s future looks grim. Right now it is doing just absolutely fine from all reports–it doesn’t have to be the best selling headset for that to be true–and it currently offers the best value proposition of the two headsets by far and generally the better overall/all-round experience too (from headset to controllers and games, etc). That’s the actual truth here.

          • Daemonocracy

            As a consumer, I just want as little as possible to do with Facebook and Zuckerburg. My personal choice though.

          • And you are entitled to that personal choice.

          • JoeD

            http://www.techtimes.com/articles/122241/20160106/even-at-600-oculus-isnt-making-money-on-the-rift-vr-headset.htm

            http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/oculus-rift-has-lost-its-touch-by-pricing-itself-out-of-the-vr-market-1329118#

            https://www.slashgear.com/oculus-is-losing-the-vr-war-bleak-outlook-ahead-10447696/

            They are not doing absolutely fine. You can tell because they have dropped their price, offered incentives, etc. That’s not the actions of a company that’s product is selling well.

            You’d have probably put your money on Betamax as well.

          • And yet: http://www.roadtovr.com/report-vr-nielsen-report-awareness-almost-doubling-annually-with-psvr-gear-vr-leading-the-way/

            See the awareness, interest, and purchase intent stats for Rift vs Vive–notice how Rift is leading in every single stat (dated 11 June 2017). . . .

            Just a little stat-based observation that might be at slight odds with your self-engineered and assumptive pessimism around Rift.

            And, a wee quote from the same article:

            “What is surprising, and I suspect difficult to recognise among VR enthusiasts, is the HTC Vive’s poor ranking against its direct competitor the Oculus Rift.”

            Also, the Xbox One has sold less units than the PS4 this generation–that’s a statistical fact–doesn’t mean it’s a failure or that Microsoft/Xbox One is in any kind of danger.

            Not being the clear leader does not equal to being a failure or being in some kind of danger or whatever.

            This situation isn’t a “VHS vs Betamax”; it’s more like a “PS4 vs Xbox One”–both VR headsets are doing and will do just fine and dandy.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            Every console generation, everyone except GreedyTendo sell their new hardware at loss, Sony did it with every PlayStation and Microsoft did it with every Xbox, even X1x will be sold at loss.
            Its done to achieve better market penetration and it allows them to sell the best hardware combination possible for given price.

            Oculus views their HMD as PLATFORM, not as sell and forget hardware.
            They probably have plans to offer exclusive service, VRchats, VR Facebook,m sell 3D movies, executive games etc etc

            They have one of the biggest backs in the industry, facebook can throw billions and it wont affect them.

            Your logic applies to some small hardware brands like HTC, Sony, Microsoft, Facebook etc can afford to loose money to push more hardware sales.

          • NooYawker

            My dad bought a Betamax :D

          • My dad did too. :-o

            Although, Betamax did actually offer the superior picture quality at the time–I just watched a cool documentary on VHS called Rewind This!–but it was limited to 1hr length tapes initially, which is too short for the vast majority of movies, and VHS could do up to 4 hours.

      • NooYawker

        The best device is the one you laid out 100’s of dollars for.

        • No, the best device is the one that overall/all-round offers the higher quality experience as well as being an order of magnitude better value for money (when you actually consider everything you get for the price)–and that’s the Rift. That’s the real objective truth.

          • NooYawker

            In your opinion, that’s the truth. As an early adopter I don’t look at what’s the best price.. I bought mine early on when the oculus didn’t have room scale so my purchase was the superior one. If you’re looking for the best price then the PSVR is the best value.
            And I’ll always choose the company that profits from selling their hardware, not data mining. I care about my privacy.

          • Derrick Jee

            PSVR is not the best price. It depends on what you already have in your home. Since I don’t own a PS4, the PSVR would cost a grand total of ~$900 including tax. The Oculus Rift is only about $500 if you’ve already got a PC that can handle it. $600 to $700 if you want room-scale Oculus VR.

          • NooYawker

            And if you don’t have a vr capable computer? Are going throug all the options? Because 9 out of 10 times he psvr will come out as the best priced option.

          • theOwlBoyz

            Do you know PS4 cost less than $300? Half of your PC?! Lol, not everyone has that “VR ready” PC.

            Between Rift and Vive, I pick Vive any day for future proof. Since you already wasted “VR ready” PC, might as well go for the superior tracking system VR. If you want cheap ass, go get PS4+PSVR, even better if you already got PS4 in your living room.

          • It’s about far more than just price. How is that not abundantly clear to you based on what I wrote?

          • NooYawker

            Yes and its your opinion that the oculus is superior to the Vive.
            90% of the tech sites on the planet disagree with you but you have a right to your opinion. It’s perfectly clear to me what you’re imagining.

          • Schorsch

            We are really not “imagining” everything. It’s a fact that Oculus is better..AND cheaper. Sorry! :)

          • No, it’s no my “opinion” that the Oculus’ all-round VALUE PROPOSITION is superior to the Vive–it is a literally measurable and observable FACT.

            The Vive is better than Rift in two main ways (out-the-box): It has an in-built camera and it is capable or larger room-scale.

            The Rift is better than the Vive in MORE THAT TWO ways (out-the-box): It is $200 cheaper, it has a more comfortable default headset (go read all the reviews), it has in-built headphones, it comes with an ADDITIONAL Xbox One controller, it comes with an ADDITIONAL remote, it’s Touch controllers are more ergonomic and have in-built finger/gesture tracking and have actual traditional gaming inputs (analog sticks and face buttons), it has a more intuitive Home/UI menu (for average users rather than total nerds/geeks), it comes with MORE free games/experiences (which are on average rated higher across almost every site/source), and it currently comes with an ADDITIONAL $100 store credit.

            And, with three sensors, which still ends up costing roughly $140 less than the default Vive, there’s a chance the Rift actually has superior tracking than Vive (no one has really done a proper review/comparison of the Rift’s three sensor tracking setup since it moved out of the “experimental” phase to “fully supporting” on 23rd May 2017).

            So, do the math!

            99% of the tech sites have opinions/comparisons online about Rift vs Vive that are totally and utterly out of date; they haven’t even bothered to compare a full Rift setup and value proposition as of May-June 2017 to the Vive setup and value proposition as of May-June 2017. Christ, most of the d*mn comparisons are from a time when the Rift didn’t even have Touch yet and was basically the same price as Vive (as opposed to having the superior Touch and being $200 less expensive).

            So, again, do the basic math!

          • NooYawker

            It’s a better deal. Yes that’s a fact. But so is a value meal. Is the gtx 1080 the best deal for GPUs? Probably not. Is it the best? Yes it is. So to lots of people one of those Radeon cards is superior… in their opinion.

          • Are you seriously this dumb?

            The Oculus Rift is not just a better price deal; it is literally a better all-round package.

            The headset is better build quality and more comfortable (the majority of reviewers are in agreement on this), the motion controller are superior (the majority of reviewers are in agreement on this), the games you get bundled are generally better (the majority of reviews are in agreement on this) and you get a load more of them (so far more stuff to play and a much greater range of experiences that will entertain you for far longer before you have to spend any additional money on new games), there is an additional Xbox One controller for free (you cannot even play any non-motion-controlled games with the Vive unless you purchase an additional standard gamepad), with the three sensor 360 degree room-scale tracking now in proper final release state it likely offers at least as good as if not even better room-scale tracking* (and that’s still at $140 cheaper even with the third sensor) . . .

            How much more do I need to add here?

            *If you care to disagree then show me a single fair comparison done in the last month that asserts the Rift with its now final (as of 23rd May) 360 degree room-scale three sensor setup is any worse than the Vive’s two sensor setup. . . .

          • NooYawker

            Go look up what the definition of opinion is.

          • I think you need to do the same.

            A physical controller being more ergonomic and having built-in finger/gesture tracking as well as actual analog sticks and face buttons is not an option; it’s a fact: That’s what the Rift’s Touch controller has, and it is superior to the Vive’s motion controllers.

            A now final release 360 degree room-scale setup that uses three cameras for triangulation instead of just two corner-to-corner is not an opinion; it is a fact: That’s what the Rift now has–and remember, it’s still $140 cheaper even with the third sensor included–and not a single review of the hardware dated after 23rd May 2017 (when Rift’s room scale went full release) has claimed the Vive’s tracking and coverage is now superior to the Rift’s final release 360 degree 3 sensor room-scale at this point (that I have seen*).

            More free games with higher average ratings across the media is objectively better than less free games with lower averages across the media, even if we ignore the ratings and just go by how many free games you get. And when you factor in all the free games/experiences you already get with the Rift plus all the additional games/experiences you can purchase with the $100 store credit you get why you buy a new Rift today–it’s an order of magnitude better.

            Having a free additional Xbox controller, alongside the motion controllers, is just objectively better: You can play a whole bunch of great VR games intended for play with a gamepad that simply do not map properly to motion controllers. So, the Vive’s standard bundle has an inherent limitation compared to the Rift standard bundle when it comes to controls (since it does not include a free top-of-its-class gamepad)–that’s just a fact.

            Having in-built dedicated headphones on the included head strap is simply superior to not having them; and the Rift has these with the $200 cheaper standard bundle and the $200 more expensive Vive does not. That is just another fact–hence why HTC release the “Deluxe Strap” (for an additional $100).

            Etc, etc, etc.

            *If you’re seen otherwise, show it. . . .

          • Mr. New Vegas

            The fact that Oculus actually support AAA game development is a major plus for me.

            Neckberds whine about exclusivity but no one actually thinks how games made and who pays for them if tehre are not enough HMD owners to recover development.

            All of this is the reason I went with PS4PRO+PSVR for first gen VR (and I own a nice X99 based PC with GTX1080Ti).

            I want to play normal AAA games including exclusives not just indies and I want real OLED HMD with no screen door effect or god rays.

          • NooYawker

            You should hear the whiny bitches crying about how Fallout 4 and Doom VFR is for Vive only. Luckily Steam doesn’t play dirty, any game made for Steam VR works just fine on the oculus.. but not the other way around.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            You missed the point here:
            HTC wasn’t financing Doom and Fallout VR.
            When a Company PAYS MONEY FOR DEVELOPMENT they have every right to keep the game exclusive.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            You missed the point here:
            HTC wasn’t financing Doom and Fallout VR.
            When a Company PAYS MONEY FOR DEVELOPMENT they have every right to keep the game exclusive.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            The xbox one gamepad is extra 40$-60$ value.

          • Jono

            All you have put forward is opinion. The facts are simply that in terms of sales figures, the Rift is slipping further and further behind. Asia is all about the VIve. Im presuming you are North American and thus dont know what is happening globally. Dwindling international sales and their current court troubles make the Rifts future look a bit shakey. Its looking like its the betamax of the VR world. The Rift is sinking, enjoy the ride..

            https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/06/facebook-struggles-in-legal-fight-to-keep-the-oculus-rift-on-shelves/
            https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/245262-facebook-slashes-oculus-rift-prices-user-growth-sags
            http://bgr.com/2017/02/08/oculus-rift-vs-htc-vive-vs-psvr-sales/

          • One more time . . . and I’m just going to give you one simple example because you’re really not worth the breath:

            Stating that a VR headset having in-built headphones (yet still being cheaper) is better than a headset not having in-built headphones (yet being more expensive) is not a matter of opinion; it is a cold, hard fact.

            Are you just too stupid to process something so basic?

            And that is just one example of a few I have now given multiple times.

            Also, the stuff you and the other tool are dwelling on is not as important as the stuff I’m and bringing to consumer’s attentions. But, if you insist on believing that things like sales figures and the like define the ultimate quality of a VR experience to consumers–a totally r*t*rd*d notion–I’ll paste something from one of my other posts just to balance the scales:

            http://www.roadtovr.com/report-vr-nielsen-report-awareness-almost-doubling-annually-with-psvr-gear-vr-leading-the-way/

            See the awareness, interest, and purchase intent stats for Rift vs Vive–notice how Rift is leading in every single stat (dated 11 June 2017). . . .

            Just a little stat-based observation that might be at slight odds with your self-engineered and assumptive pessimism around Rift.

            And, a wee quote from the same article:

            “What is surprising, and I suspect difficult to recognise among VR enthusiasts, is the HTC Vive’s poor ranking against its direct competitor the Oculus Rift.”

            Also, the Xbox One has sold less units than the PS4 this generation–that’s a statistical fact–doesn’t mean it’s a failure or that Microsoft/Xbox One is in any kind of danger.

            Not being the clear leader does not equal to being a failure or being in some kind of danger or whatever.

          • Jono

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/53922a4b0cb1763bd1f6ef377fa403cbebded59b4889f393ff8ff90786247e5d.jpg All I am seeing is excuses and trying to shift the focus away from the Rifts faltering sales and other woes. Im sure everythings fine over at Oculus lol

          • One more time . . . and I’m just going to give you one simple example because you’re really not worth the breath:

            Stating that a VR headset having in-built headphones (yet still being cheaper) is better than a headset not having in-built headphones (yet being more expensive) is not a matter of opinion; it is a cold, hard fact.

            Are you just too stupid to process something so basic?

            And that is just one example of a few I have now given multiple times.

            Also, the stuff you and the other tool are dwelling on is not as important as the stuff I’m and bringing to consumer’s attentions. But, if you insist on believing that things like sales figures and the like define the ultimate quality of a VR experience to consumers–a totally r*t*rd*d notion–I’ll paste something from one of my other posts just to balance the scales:

            http://www.roadtovr.com/report-vr-nielsen-report-awareness-almost-doubling-annually-with-psvr-gear-vr-leading-the-way/

            See the awareness, interest, and purchase intent stats for Rift vs Vive–notice how Rift is leading in every single stat (dated 11 June 2017). . . .

            Just a little stat-based observation that might be at slight odds with your self-engineered and assumptive pessimism around Rift.

            And, a wee quote from the same article:

            “What is surprising, and I suspect difficult to recognise among VR enthusiasts, is the HTC Vive’s poor ranking against its direct competitor the Oculus Rift.”

            Also, the Xbox One has sold less units than the PS4 this generation–that’s a statistical fact–doesn’t mean it’s a failure or that Microsoft/Xbox One is in any kind of danger.

            Not being the clear leader does not equal to being a failure or being in some kind of danger or whatever.

          • Jono

            All you have put forward is opinion. The facts are simply that in terms of sales figures, the Rift is slipping further and further behind. Asia is all about the VIve. Im presuming you are North American and thus dont know what is happening globally. Dwindling international sales and their current court troubles make the Rifts future look a bit shakey. Its looking like its the betamax of the VR world. The Rift is sinking, enjoy the ride..

            https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/06/facebook-struggles-in-legal-fight-to-keep-the-oculus-rift-on-shelves/
            https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/245262-facebook-slashes-oculus-rift-prices-user-growth-sags
            http://bgr.com/2017/02/08/oculus-rift-vs-htc-vive-vs-psvr-sales/

          • Tommel

            Sorry, but I think he made his point and you can disagree with it, but your GTX comparison doesn’t work here cause it’s not like the VIVE was a GTX 1080 Ti and the Rift a Radeon something. You might think that better room-scaling is far more important than better touch controllers, a (at least IMO) slightly better screen, better audio straps etc. This is OK: Then go for the VIVE. But don’t act like the VIVE was (in June 2017; it’s not June 2016 anymore) better than the RIft in every aspect. Because this is simply not true.

            /EDIT Sorry, didn’t see that your discussion wasn’t finished at this point. So my point is somewhat redundant. Sorry for that. :D

          • NooYawker

            I’m not acting like Vive is anything. I never said the Vive is superior, I’m merely trying to make him understand that just because he ends his sentence with FACT doesn’t make it so. Everything he said is his opinion. You might prefer the oculus, and that’s your choice and if you think it’s superior thats your opinion. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but when they try to push it off as facts in 20 posts over and over again in different articles that makes them a nutty fanboy.

          • JeanClaude

            I don’t know, there are facts, I think you can be of the opinion that the Vive is still the better value proposition, but that does go against the facts.

            200$ cheaper.
            More comfortable.
            Includes an Xbox controller and xbox pc wireless adapter.
            Comes with the audio built in strap.
            Looks nicer.
            Equal tracking performance.
            Touch gesture support on controllers.
            Includes a remote.
            Has lower minimum pc requirement.
            Includes more bundled games.

            Those look like fact to me.

            Vive has some fact on its side too.

            Easier to setup for room scale.
            Needs less usb ports.
            Slightly wider fov
            In the future, it looks like it might support more accessories.
            Has a in built camera.

            Those are all facts, you can look at them and be of the opinion the pros of the vive sum up to something better, but like, I think most people wouldn’t based on those facts. Too many pros on the rift side, and some pretty strong pros at that.

          • JeanClaude

            I’m with you. I was looking to buy one last month, my friend has both, and I was going for Vive based on the internet, but whenI asked her, she said she prefers the Rift. I was surprised. So I went and tried both at her house. Rift is more comfortable, image slightly clearer, included headphones sound great, tracking I saw no difference between either, they’re both perfect, but the touch controllers for now are a huge win, more immersive, love the analog stick on them. All that for 200$ less, and it comes with 8 free bundled games, good ones too. Its also giving a 100$ gift card for their app store right now as part of their summer sale.

            I didn’t care about either, but when choosing which to buy, in may 2017, it was impossible to objectively choose the Vive over the Rift.

            If Vive included the new audio strap, and the knuckles controllers, and reduced its price, it would start competing.

          • Spot on.

            And, because I really just want people to get the best deal and experience for their money, I want to make sure they are aware of this kind of stuff.

          • mirak

            HTC Vive tracking accuracy is better and more reliable, no matter what area size you play.
            You also have less cable to deal with, you don’t have to buy an extra pci usb 3.0 card, or an extra caméra.

          • Schorsch

            Here you do it again. Rather than a real, educated comparison…you require conspiracy theories about datamining, privacy and web cams to defend your Vive. It’s actually hilarious to watch..and sorta sad as well.

          • NooYawker

            Conspiracy theory?? How do you think Facebook makes it’s money? Why did they pay 19 BILLIOIN for Whatsapp? It’s not funny at all, it’s really sad how ignorant you are.

          • Schorsch

            fb makes its money in more or less the same way as ANY other large website out there, I should know since I am in this field because of my profession. If you think there is no “data mining” going on elsewhere, it’s you who are ignorant here. But this is not even the point. The point is your implication that fb uses the Rift and “the cameras” as well for the data-mining..with more implications on your side about privacy intrusion and what not which are nothing but far-fetched conspiracy theories without any base in reality, absolutely laughable.

          • NooYawker

            There’s always some data gathering going on but Facebook and Google built a multibillion dollar empire by dishing out “free” services. Anyone who says “everyone else does it” truly has no idea how much data they’re siphoning from you.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            Every company mines data, im not defending GB (I just dont use it, never used actually) but the all-beloved gogole is the worst offender, it has most peoples emails, 99.9% of peoples searches, now also books and documents, it knows what kind of apps you prefer, what kind of movies you like, porn, games etc.
            If you use medical and/or fitness apps it knows you health..
            And much more…
            Google is the real monster.

            P.S. as far as Rift/Vive, its pure conspiracy nuttjobery to assume FB mines data through hardware.
            You have no proof that Oculus programs track you more than HTC ones or track you at all.

            Dont use facebook, thats all

          • NooYawker

            Go download an extensions for your web browser called disconnect or ghostery and see how every site has a Facebook tracker. So no, just don’t use Facebook isn’t enough. Go look at fb’s eula about the data they capture on the webcams. It’s not a conspiracy to say a data mining company is data mining. To think otherwise is naive.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            I use ublock origin, good enough

          • WyrdestGeek

            I don’t think FB is currently mining data through hardware today.

            But to my knowledge there’s nothing stopping them from flipping a switch to start doing it whenever they want.

            Certain web sites already collect info on everything you click on within their site so as to better target you with ads.

            Why *wouldn’t* the owner of a VR headset company eventually gather data on what you’re gazing at? It might start semi-innocently too– like they only do it when you’re interacting with a web browser *within* VR.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            You logic applies to any VR HMD, HTC can do the same to sell it to advertisers or to optimize steam ads among otehr things.
            Steam already optimizes their front page offers based on what you own, what you like and what games you look at.

          • Mr. New Vegas

            You logic applies to any VR HMD, HTC can do the same to sell it to advertisers or to optimize steam ads among otehr things.
            Steam already optimizes their front page offers based on what you own, what you like and what games you look at.

          • JeanClaude

            Oculus makes money off its storefront. That’s why it can afford to sell at cost price. HTC only profits from sales of the hardware, Valve makes money on game sales.

      • Aragon

        The biggest advantage for the Vive is in my opinion that the Lightstations only need power suppy and could be placed anywhere in the room. I would still prefer the Vive. Altough I think Vive should release a new VR Headset next year, which has 4K resolution, is more lightweight and the Deluxe VR Strap should be part of it.

        • Well, that’s a real bonus in the Vive’s cap, for sure. But, let’s be honest: None of the VR headsets are exactly hassle free to set up, so I don’t think that’s a major deciding factor. I mean, I don’t have a massive room space that I can basically clear out just to play VR anyway, or somewhere to mount sensors directly on a wall or whatever, so the Vive would end up being more hassle for me than a Rift to set up–and I expect that’s true for many other people as well. So, you have a legit point, but I think it’s one of the lesser considerations when all is said and done. I think the huge price difference, the amount and quality of games/experiences you get bundled for free, the included accessories and functionality you get in the base package, the overall quality of both the tracking and the motion controllers, and any other currently available deals are far more important. And in pretty much all of those aspects most people agree that the Oculus Rift actually comes out on top.

          • Derrick Jee

            Exactly. And the Oculus Rift is extremely easy to set up IMO, you simply plug the sensors into your PC’s USB drives and point them at the play area. It’s JUST as easy as the Vive’s, and seems to be just as effective.

      • Domitjen

        Touch makes all the difference..really. Tried both.

        • Mr. New Vegas

          Touch is the reason I will never support HTC and why in future if Oculus releases a better version of HMD I will buy Oculus.
          Right now im more interested in Microsoft partnered solutions with higher resolution OLED screens and Inside-out tracking.

          • Andrew Dahl

            Never say never. Simply because Oculus has a good product on the market doesn’t mean HTC doesn’t also have a good product on the market.

        • Andrew Dahl

          I’ve also tried both. Touch is nothing compared to the Vive controllers. With the Vive controllers, you feel like you’re actually holding the virtual objects. With Touch, you just pinch and turn things. The Vive controllers are significantly better in my opinion, and the Vive has much better room tracking without the need to buy additional hardware. The Rift also has a lot of light bleed, especially around the nose. It’s enough to see my keyboard and mouse, really breaks the immersion. The HTC Vive is the all around winner.

  • The reality is they have not lowered the price because they don’t have any major competitors. They sell the vive as a different product from the Oculus. They sell the Vive as the best room-scale VR experience. We should see a price decrease if someone like LG comes out with their headset with higher resolution and higher comfort for the same price.

  • GrangerFX

    HTC is aiming at a very small market that want room scale VR and the ability to walk around. The new $300 Windows inside-out tracking headsets are going to dominate the VR market very quickly once they roll out.

    • Master E

      I’m hoping they come up with something good. Knowing Microsoft they are hopefully waiting to see what HTC pumps out next or at least get a hint so they can bust out their product and be on par or offer something special.

      Really hoping for a VR/AR hybrid, 120hz 4K, and comfort… but then again I’m a geek for this stuff and that’s no way to run a business.

      Guessing we will see HTC, Oculus and Gear all lead the charge with their next headsets. Gear and daydream stand to make the biggest impact with their large user base. Might not be the best Vr/Ar, but it’ll get it the most exposure and help HTC and Oculus in the long term.

      Then there’s the sleeping giant display professionals Sony… wonder what they are up to?

      • GrangerFX

        I think I agree with what you are saying. HTC should keep releasing high end VR headsets for users willing to pay a premium for quality. That being said, they have not even hinted that they are doing this yet. Of course stereo 4K 120hz is going to require a lot of GPU power so it could be NVidia that walks away with most of the cash.

        I suspect that Sony is also working on their next VR headset. It will be interesting to see if they go all in or not with their next console. What if it only worked with VR or at least had VR as its primary focus rather than an add on? Regardless I don’t think we will see more than minor improvements from them for the next year or two. Their current PSVR has a serious flaw that they need to address with is that if you want HDR on your TV you have to rewire your system every time you use it. That’s going to wear out the HDMI connectors.

        • Andrew Jakobs

          Don’t count on their next console to be VR only (far from it), and don’t count on a new PSVR headset any time soon (only revisions like with the consoles (PS3->ps3 slim->ps3 supercrapslim).

    • Andrew Jakobs

      I don’t know, part of me thinks you’re right, but also part of me thinks you’re wrong. People are already bitching about the ‘low’ FOV of the vive, rift and psvr, while these headset appearantly have even lower FOV’s.
      I’m still waiting for reviews, as I still have a DK2 and my GPU isn’t able to handle the Vive or CV1 anyway.. And AR is certainly not something I’m interested in, I don’t see the point for gaming (inhouse), only for stuff as designing..

    • NooYawker

      Anyone who doesn’t want roomscale would be better off with a PSVR, even if you have to buy a PS it’s still the cheapest solution. and no, mobile VR isn’t VR at all.

  • Vae

    TL;DR

    If you want room-scale instead of rug-scale it’ll cost you another $200.

    • daveinpublic

      Or even more.

  • Sponge Bob

    I recently tested lighthouse for custom-made tracking (with triad semiconductor chips) and also some camera based solutions (pixie camera and Raspberry pi camera with opencv)
    I should say that camera business is messy as hell compared to laser-based lighthouse
    too sensitive to ir like sunlight etc

    Light house tracking is in fact a beautiful and very precise solution
    In fact laser can go much much father than 12 ft – the problem is omnidirectional IR flash
    once this problem is solved expect 50 ft m “big room scale” from lighthouse

    • Andrew Jakobs

      noone is actually dissing the lighthouse system (which also has it’s flaws), but by now, more than a year after release, the vive should have come down in price, as we all know technology gets cheaper to produce over (even a short) time.
      But HTC is in financial trouble, so that’s why they don’t lower the price, as a lot of people are still buying the vive at the price it is now, so why lower it if you can get higher profits.

  • WyrdestGeek

    Re Vive stand-alone headset: Well, since I don’t currently have a computer or graphics card capable of VR, even if the standalone cost the same as a Vive or Rift headset, I’d still be saving $$. A standalone headset *will* look like a “budget” option to certain would-be early adopters. (Like me.)


    Furry cows moo and decompress.

  • Cl

    I think ill be waiting for gen 2 headsets. Buying at full price when its been out over a year feels like a waste of money when something better may be just around the corner. At least bundle the new headstrap with the vive and sell for $700. Maybe those new lighthouses too, i hear they are cheaper to produce anyway.

    • Bryan Ischo

      Meh, you could crush my Vive under a streamroller now and I would still feel like I got $800 worth of value out of it over the past year. And I didn’t even play it that much.

      So wait if you want, but it’s not like buying now won’t get you anything. It will get you enjoyment for as long as you own the device, regardless of what else comes out and when.

      • Andrew Jakobs

        that’s because you already have it for over a year.. but the vive should have come down in price about now (or have been revised with even better controllers, headstrap and lighthouses).

      • daveinpublic

        I think the fact that you didn’t play it that much is one of the reasons he wants to wait.

    • Andrew Jakobs

      Count on the headsets which ship at the end of the year to use the new lighthouses and the new headstrap.. but also know that the new lighthouses are not compatible with the current headset.

      • Cl

        Oh I thought it was just the vive pre that wasn’t compatible with them.

        • Andrew Jakobs

          No, it’s the regular version, the new headband isn’t compatible with the pre, BUT you can get something extra from HTC (without cost) to make it compatible.

    • NooYawker

      If anyone asked me TODAY should they pick up a VR system, unless they have money to burn I always tell them to wait. Unless you’re a serious tech geek, hardcore gamer, frequent early adopter or just have lot’s of money, wait. But if you gotta have it pick up a used system and just wait.

  • Brad Neuberg

    I originally really liked the Vive with its room scale tracking; however, the new Oculus Touch hand controllers are game changing, you really feel like you have hands in the virtual environments and it makes all the difference. This combined with some of the Oculus content exclusives that use the Touch controllers like Robo Recall and The Unspoken, pushed me over the line. The lower priced bundle also helped, as well as the fact that you can now set up three Oculus sensors for room scale tracking. The Vive sensors take up less ports, but since I have a new computer with a new motherboard that supports many USB 3.0 connectors it ended up being fine.

  • The FatherMind

    Well surly the HTC controllers are not worth the money. Those latest controllers have a serious defect that cause them to break after a few hours of use if you hit the right button on the thumb pad extensively. Something in the controller goes bad and it stops working. After that, after a bit of time you cannot press down, or left on the thumb pad. If you send it to HTC they will likely send it back to you broken or it will only work for a short time then break exactly the same way AGAIN. I am about to send my controller back for the 3rd time. I have exchanged about 6 controllers and they ALL have the bug. A bug that it seems even HTC cannot fix. I am quickly losing faith in HTC. And we could talk about their return system.. it is horrible. It takes you nearly a week just to get a shipping label out of them. HTC.. If you read this.. FIX THIS! I am telling everyone NOT TO BUY YOUR PRODUCT!

    • Andrew Jakobs

      And it shouldn’t be hard to fix it, buttons on gamecontrollers have been around for ages including the knowledge of what could go wrong and how sturdy they need to be.

      • The FatherMind

        Tell that to HTC. I figured whatever was wrong with at manufacture time.. I could just send it to HTC and they would fix it. Nope.. They have NO IDEA how to solve this issue. And I have seen it in more than 6 of 6 controllers I have purchased.

        • Andrew Jakobs

          You would almost just ask them to send an extra broken controller (with the same problem that is), so you can just open the controller and fix it yourself with a decend button. (haha can’t remember how many times I fixed my own joystick buttons, LOL).

          • The FatherMind

            The point is they are selling a controller that is broken by design and THEY cannot fix themselves. I would say that is pretty serious. I have heard of people figuring out how to fix them on their own… So why do you suppose HTC cannot figure out how to do it?? hahahah

  • Hadar

    Oculus with their store can and should sell at cost as they are competing with the juggernaut of gaming – Valve and selling games is so much more profitable. HTC however don’t have that luxury, so they have to make a profit.

    Mind you I don’t really believe Oculus ever sold at cost even after the price cut, but that’s just me.

    • NooYawker

      FB doesn’t are about profits from selling hardware or software, their bread and butter is personal data. What better than to have camera’s setup in people’s homes? It’s a treasure trove of private data.

  • Master E

    I’m really looking to get one of the current gens HMDs with full intention to get gen two… I’m just impatient.

    Trying to decide between the rift and Vive. I have room for either, budget doesn’t matter so much… and it sounds like their games and programs can just be played on each other. Plus theirs VorpX

    Can someone tell me why I’d want one over the other? Honestly I don’t care too much about full room scale for a higher price… I’m more interested in the crossplatform programs and how good is VorpX on converting games like the witcher, skyrim, fallout etc?

    • Tommel

      If you don’t care about room scale so much, i would go for the Oculus. But I own a Oculus, so I am not really neutral here. Have you already tried both? Another thing is the software. I feel bad selling this as an advantage of the Oculus, but it’s usually much easier to play Steam VR games with a Rift than the other way round (I know, there is Revive). For me, pro Vive is: you really have a lot of space and you can use it for VR only; you’re wearing glasses (only, no lenses); you really don’t want to support the FB/Oculus philosophy. The rest is pro Oculus, i am afraid.

    • daveinpublic

      The polish is better on the Oculus.

  • Schorsch

    Vive: Silly, unpractical “Wands” without joysticks, Touch 100x better. Vive: Needs a “Comfort Strap” (LOLMAO) at extra cost, and let’s not forget the built-in headphones with the Rift which, by the way, are excellent, superb bass. Not only that, the Rift is already lighter and more comfortable, so add needed headphones for the Vive and it becomes even more uncomfortable and heavier. But I guess HTC will spend the next 50 years claiming that theirs is the “better deal” because of…”Roomscale”.
    By the way what did you expect asking a company justifying a high price? That they tell you the truth?

    • benz145

      Not necessarily, but putting their response out there is important for understanding the story (true or not) that they want to tell the public about their decisions, and that can be useful in many ways.

    • NooYawker

      You don’t have to sell at a higher price when your company makes all it’s profits from data mining. That’s why oculus will always use webcams instead of lasers for tracking.

      • daveinpublic

        Vive has the camera mounted on the HUD.

        • NooYawker

          Yes and it can be turned off, turn off the webcam sensors and you have a useless system. Read your EULA, Facebook owns the data they gather from these webcam sensors.

  • Andrew Jakobs

    Pffff… the only reason they haven’t dropped price is because people are willing to pay the full price anyway. At the current rate/price they can handle the demand without really having to invest in larger factories, and lowering the productioncosts while upping the profitmargin, with next incarnation to be release with the new headmount while still selling it at profit. Only when sales decline will they lower the price of the vive.. it’s simple, why lower if they still sell like hotcakes..

  • Joe Black

    The irony is strong in PC VR today. If Sony started fully supporting the PSVR for PC both Oculus and Vive would have to innovate and compete, or lie down and die.

    Sony has already sold over 1 million of its HMDs while Oculus has lost its people’s darling position a long time ago already, and Vive is still trying to extract the maximum profit from early adopters.

  • Tenka

    So his whole reason for not dropping the price is because “it offers the better room-scale support”… right…

    Lets just sit back and see how many people would prefer to get VR working in their regular room of 2mx2m vs actually having a 10mx10m play space to setup that doesnt inconvenience everyone in the house hold.

  • Dean

    From my own experience I really don’t get the room scale argument. Both Rift and Vive can now do this, Vive can do it over a larger distance. I don’t know what areas you have your systems set up in, but I’m in the UK and mine is in the living room. I literally don’t know anyone who has an open, non furniture filled space that a 3 sensor Rift setup wouldn’t accommodate.

    The space I have (2.1m x 2.1m ) allows me to freely move, combat, game in that area. Even if I had extra space, I honestly can’t think of the time where an extra step in any direction that I could get with the Vive would help me out. If I’m in a room in a game and a door is just 5m away to one side, whatever system you have you are going to be using locomotion to get to it, unless you have a 10m (33ft) x 10m (33ft) free play area and sensors tracking 100 squared metres (nobody!)

    I’m not having a go at any system, I look forward to more competition not less (just make everything cross play ok developers, no damn walls), I just think arguing on the room scale issue is a bit hollow.

    • RFC_VR

      Until Tetherless solution is available at retailers, the Tether is actually the limitation for going larger with room scale. Whether consumers have enough space to exploit the Vive’s larger trackable space is an important point. I had 2.4m x 3.8m at home.

    • NooYawker

      I have a game room that has my computer and a shelf with my nerd stuff. I have about 5mx8m free open space. Shocking but there’s lot’s of people with open space.

      • Dean

        Here’s space stats from an official VALVE developer –
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0000cee75d3d900b64d097874fe4a6a6051190f0a5daa887af289825731fbb1e.jpg

        As you can see a 4m x 4m space is only use by 0.3% of people. Even a 3m x 3m is only used by 6%

        Your space, while enviable, is the very top tip of a large tree.

        • NooYawker

          2m? How do you even reach your arm out?

          • Dean

            Well your outstretched arms if you measure them fingertip to fingertip are pretty much equal to your height for most people. So unless you’re 2m (6ft 6″) tall, stretching out in a 2m space isn’t a problem.

          • Daemonocracy

            what about Mr. Fantastic and Stretch Armstrong? Does nobody think of them?

          • Tenka

            They got banned for long-arm-scale exploits.

          • Tenka

            How fucking long are your arms?!!?

    • Sponge Bob

      vr has to work outside , including in direct sunlight, to win the crowd
      there is plenty of space on this planet

  • Raphael

    I’m a happy Vive user and i think holding the price at a higher level based on a “feeling” of imagined value isn’t a good business strategy. Citing room scale as you’re reason to hold the price while the competition reduce theirs significantly isn’t a good idea. Octopus have fixed their tracking issues so room scale is OK even if it will never be quite as good as laser energy flooding an area… People largely don’t care about that small difference in tracking range.

    Of concern is the high price of vive trackers and the “deluxe” audio strap which according to some adds extra weight.

    I love my Vive but i think OctopusVR are manoeuvring into a better position and vive sales will begin to suffer from this point.

    HTC will need to do an about turn. Holding prices at the maximum based on a “feeling” of imagined value isn’t a wise choice.

    • CURTROCK

      I agree. I’m a Rifter, yet I never dump on the VIVE, because it is also great. I want both companies to succeed. Although it’s unlikely to happen anytime soon, if FB were to implement another price drop, HTC would have a real problem.

      • Raphael

        Wouldn’t surprise me if OctopusVR did another price drop.

    • Schorsch

      At least you admit/realize it is indeed merely a “feeling” and something that in reality doesn’t likely play a role, for 99% of users. Bottomline is that I am convinced HTC simply sells at this price “because they can”, because they see they have an edge in sales over the Rift and no urgency to drop the price because of this. But overall, this is bad for everyone, because the high prices are ONE of the reason that VR still is far from mainstream.

      • Raphael

        “O’Brien’s explanation of the HTC’s stance on the Vive’s cost suggests the company sees itself as the price-leader, able to command the present price point without significant impact from lower priced offerings.” << lower priced offerings implies budget hardware and a lesser product. That's not actually the competition they have. Here's what they actually have:

        CV1 is smaller, a bit lighter and more comfortable. It's a very high quality design with superior controllers, better lenses. Vive ships with neoprene face pad. Neoprene is the worst possible material for contact with ether skin. I used to use it in my motherboard back when i was chilling my old cpu below zero.

        Vive as shipped is unbearable to use in hot weather unless you replace the neoprene when a better face pad (has made a massive difference for me).

        This guy is out of touch with his company's product compared to "cheaper" options.

        • Jono

          You spout absolute rubbish, cherry pick vague comments from social media, and spread outright misinformation. The new headstrap makes the Vive as comfortable as the Rift. I live in a very hot climate and there are no issues with the Vives default padding in summer, utter nonsense.

          • Raphael

            Well at least i know im talking to an idiot now. Vive has a lot of complaints about heat and for good reason. Neoprene is a very bad material for a face cushion. I used to use it as insulation for subzero cooling of CPU. It should not be used as a face cushion.

            There is a big industry for replacement cushions that don’t trap heat and hold bacteria.

          • Raphael

            Well at least i know im talking to an idiot now. Vive has a lot of complaints about heat and for good reason. Neoprene is a very bad material for a face cushion. I used to use it as insulation for subzero cooling of CPU. It should not be used as a face cushion.

            There is a big industry for replacement cushions that don’t trap heat and hold bacteria.

    • Sponge Bob

      you do realize that Lighthouse lasers can reach as far as 50 ft or even farther..

      it is the omni-directional IR flash that lacks this reach

      once they switch to RF sync expect to see 50×50 ft tracking area (but RF is extremely tricky so they might not have sufficient brain power for that :-)

      not sure same can be done with 2, 3 or 4 cameras at sub-10K cost

      • Raphael

        Hello Bob,

        So the lighthouse uses two lines of conventional IR emitters to send sync data.
        Then the laser sweeps. Obviously those IR led don’t have the range since they’re not lasers. Correct?
        The RF sync is featured on the new lighthouses?

        • Sponge Bob

          Correct for the first part
          Incorrect for the second part – rf sync is not featured in any new products from Valve/HTC
          Why ?
          cause it fucking hard :-)
          (or way too expensive … otherwise they would have done it already)

          • Raphael

            It seems kinda silly to get the benefit of large area coverage of laser and to cripple it with standard issue low power led.

          • Sponge Bob

            what do you propose ?

            a miniature atomic clock in every piece ?

          • Raphael

            Check the pricing on those atomic modules. Instead of a row of low power IR how about 1 higher powered IR emitter. Or even an IR laser with broad cone.

          • Sponge Bob

            yes, a military grade laser to burn your eyes

          • Raphael

            I used a 3 watt ir laser years ago as illuminator for night vision.

    • Jono

      ?? Rifts sales are dropping far behind now. Vive sales are now pulling further and further ahead of the Rifts. The deluxe audio strap reduces weight and on the head its a big improvement. Oculus are falling behind not moving ahead. The had a bright moment with the release of touch but that mainly saw sales to existing Rift owners while the Vive has become the accepted headset in Asia.

      http://bgr.com/2017/02/08/oculus-rift-vs-htc-vive-vs-psvr-sales/
      https://news.fastcompany.com/htc-vive-sales-beat-oculus-rift-2-to-1-in-real-life-says-game-exec-4028452
      https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/245262-facebook-slashes-oculus-rift-prices-user-growth-sags

      • Raphael

        Old information flappy. Rift discount is swaying many consumers. HTC are selling to pro sector and arcade as well so they have the edge there. I certainly don’t regret switching to vive at the pre-order stage.

      • Raphael

        Old information flappy. Rift discount is swaying many consumers. HTC are selling to pro sector and arcade as well so they have the edge there. I certainly don’t regret switching to vive at the pre-order stage.

    • Jono

      ?? Rifts sales are dropping far behind now. Vive sales are now pulling further and further ahead of the Rifts. The deluxe audio strap reduces weight and on the head its a big improvement. Oculus are falling behind not moving ahead. The had a bright moment with the release of touch but that mainly saw sales to existing Rift owners while the Vive has become the accepted headset in Asia.

      http://bgr.com/2017/02/08/oculus-rift-vs-htc-vive-vs-psvr-sales/
      https://news.fastcompany.com/htc-vive-sales-beat-oculus-rift-2-to-1-in-real-life-says-game-exec-4028452
      https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/245262-facebook-slashes-oculus-rift-prices-user-growth-sags

  • GreasyMullet

    I admit I love the VIVE. Having spent a good deal of time with the big 3 (PSVR, VIVE, RIFT) the VIVE is my favorite.

    Having said that if I were to buy with where the market is today, I would go RIFT hands down. The first reason is that the VIVE headset is designed like a prototype and not a polished high end system that HTC claims to be. Accessories are good things but when a 3rd part has to create something decent because your base product is so poor… that should be a huge red flag to HTC. RIFT and especially PSVR have far superior levels of comfort. HTC needs to fix this so that the product matches their rhetoric of a high end system right out of the box.

    The next big thing is price. I would need to spend $400 more on a new VIVE than a RIFT. And while the VIVE is my preference, it is NOT worth $400 more, especially with so many flaws in Gen 1. Everyone I know who wont get into VR says price is the big issue. This is why the PSVR is doing so well is because it was priced perfect and runs on a system they already had.

    HTC is clueless here and its going to come back to bite them in the butt. They may want to be the premium high end VR experience but they are not there yet and the price needs to reflect that.

    My bet is they are leaving this price intact so when Gen 2 comes out, they continue to charge the same amount and then the Gen 1 can go into the bargin bin. For my next jump, I am sitting still until integrated lag free wireless is a reality… and whoever puts forth the best platform will get my vote with my wallet.

    • daveinpublic

      Exactly. The Vive’s main selling point is some extra space for room scale that 96% of people will never ever use. If $400 isn’t enough reason, then think about the ‘deluxe’ audio in the Oculus, the deluxe controllers, and the deluxe polish of the product.

  • towblerone

    I don’t want pleb VR so PSVR isn’t an option and I’ll never support Facebook so neither is Rift. I want free and open roomscale so Vive is the best choice for me but when the LG HMD drops I may consider that. VR 2.0 headsets are going to be insane.

  • Their answer does not satisfies me. If we ask to Oculus, they too would surely say that the Rift is the best product because it has more natural controllers…

  • I think the real-world reviews from consumers (like myself) say it all so just look at the following links AFTER you consider this….

    Both systems are BLEEDING EDGE and amazing, but that doesn’t mean they’re equal anywhere and my review expands on this, but in short I think anyone that isn’t a pro in the field and uses VR in its various forms regularly; will really enjoy either system. I wouldn’t suggest anyone invest in Rift at this point though between the trouble Oculus is in legally, the inferior tracking (there’s no debate here as this article covers), the inferior tracking tech (it’s not just a smaller area, but can track fewer items, less accurately, over that smaller area AND requires MUCH more hardware and cabling to even come close and then isn’t quite as reliable, though the difference is minor in that smaller area the Rift is meant for).

    THEN there is the whole Steam vs Oculus store issue which should also not be a debate (Steam is HUGE with tons of support and great accessibility). Then there’s the fact that you can play ANY Oculus game (with Oculus home installed) with the Vive and Steam thanks to OpenVR.

    I just don’t see why people have to debate this. The facts are clear.

    • Sponge Bob

      yes… BUT

      Why do you think Vive will stay in this business for much longer than Octopus ?

      • Because neither Valve nor HTC are caught up in legal issues core to their VR businesses, both are advancing in those areas in large ways (openVr and “vive” tracking accessories in particular), Valve literally can’t loose because they’re not investing heavily in the hardware and HTC shows no signs of going away (save for perhaps in their mobile business).

        The ONLY thing Oculus has going for it at this point (over competitors) is Facebooks’ money.

        I don’t say this so much as a consumer, but as a VR entrepreneur who has been in contact with Lucky in person and email, multiple times, been to Connect multiple times (as well as SVVR and various other conferences and mixers) and as someone who has worked very closely with the VR video industry (though I myself don’t consume much “vr video”).

        The reality is that in a couple years, arguing Vive vs Rift (or whatever exists then) will be like arguing Samsung vs HTC (Android Handsets). The specs will vary a bit and there will be subjective factors that make people prefer one over another, but both will get the job done. Since we’re still pretty early in the hardware though, there are certain risks we all take and may want to mitigate. Hardware obsolescence and/or lack of support and upgrades are just as important as specs to someone who can’t afford to go out and get hardware every time something new comes out. I think that on one end of the spectrum are enthusiasts and professionals who will just buy both and on the other end are people who can barely afford 1 and will have to choose by price. In the middle are LOTS of us who can spend our time here debating :P

        • Sponge Bob

          neither octopus nor vive will stay in vr business for long

        • Sponge Bob

          there are hard problems to solve and killer apps to be developed
          and its not gonna come from either of them

    • Tommel

      The facts are clear? Yes, the Vive’s room-scaling is, in certain situations, still much better than Oculus’. And yes, Oculus is in some trouble (lawsuit). But I really don’t get your point regarding the Oculus store. I mean, yes, Steam is HUGE, but when I look through the games on Steam… there is, with the exception of Dead Effect 2, nothing exclusively on Steam that really convinces me. There’s a lot, but I don’t really see any concept… I just see a lot of Indie stuff and. Well. This might change with Fallout VR, but we are talking about June 2016.

    • Dean

      what does track fewer items even mean? There are 2 controllers to track, the Rift controllers even if your a rabid Vive fan are much better than the Vive, this is why they are going to copy them.

      As for the hardware argument the biggest piece of hardware is the PC. This needs to be be far less meaty to run a Rift than a Vive because of the ASW option, which Vive doesn’t have an alternative for.

      If you are really arguing on stores just based on numbers then I don’t know where to start with you. Quality not quantity! There has been or going to be half a BILLION invested into developers to produce top quality games for the rift, with a promise of a great title coming out every month of 2017. What has Valve/HTC invested in, where is their contribution to forwarding VR?

  • CodeMonkey432

    The stupidity here is getting in a pissing match about which one is better. You guys are worse than the PC vs Console children. Competition is good – You Rift guys would still be seated with an xbox controller if not for the Vive, so be happy. The Rift pushes HTC to improve their stuff too. Personally, I will never buy a Rift simply because it’s FaceBook, but I’m not stupid enough to think the Rift isn’t a good product because of that. I’d like to see the paid exclusive crap stop – its not a good thing. I”m thrilled that Star Trek has cross platform play and I’d like to see more of that. So stop acting like 8 year olds.

    • Dean

      Well if you’re talking about people not acting like an 8 year old, don’t say I won’t buy a VR headset because it got bought out by Facebook. Zuckerberg is literally the most most enthusiastic person in VR right now, VR will never fail because he will push progress even if it loses money. Also if it’s because of the privacy thing, stop using anything Google, in fact fact stop using anything online, because they know stuff about you.

  • Daemonocracy

    The Vive is the one I want. The hardware is truly impressive and it seems to have the best impressions from what I’ve been reading. Valve needs to start pumping out some exclusive games for it though, HTC needs to understand that the cheaper product will always win if they don’t have the necessary killer apps to justify the purchase. Software sells hardware, plain and simple.

    I bought an Alienware 13 R2 last year, it has an Intel i7 6500 and an Nvidia 965 GPU. I love it, the OLED screen is gorgeous, but I don’t think it can VR. The minimum, with a graphics amplifier, is an intel i7 6700. Do I have any chance of running a Vive with this chip and an external amplifier off my laptop?

  • wowgivemeabreak

    As a Rift owner, I do like the idea of the Vive base stations and at least in theory, wish I had those. I have not used the Vive but from what I have read, the majority say the Rift HMD and touch controllers are superior (as well as the overall game library) so it is a pretty hard sell to say the Vive is worth that much more simply because it may offer a bigger official play area (I know based on experience the Rift can easily do more than 8×8 with 3 cameras), something most don’t even have. Even at 12×12, you still have a space that is far too small to truly be useful or a game changer in VR. Tracking wise I also do not have issues with my Rift sensors so it’s not like they have mediocre tracking. Again though, I do like the idea of the base stations and wish I had them, at least again in theory.

    Had Oculus released the rift with the touch controllers from the start then I doubt the Vive would have had such a units sold advantage and would probably be the underdog. I imagine many Vive sales now are simply from people who are going by what they were told or read before that the Vive was the way to go and was “true vr”, before the touch controllers came out. That or they simply hate facebook that much.

  • MosBen

    The reason they’re not lowering the price is that a couple hundred dollars less is still well within early adopter/enthusiast territory. My parents won’t buy a Vive for $800, but they also won’t buy a Rift for $600. I suspect that the second gen HMDs will see relatively small improvements in terms of graphics, but significant improvements in fit and finish, comfort, price, and minimal increase in system requirements, if any. And they’ll be wireless.

    My parents might buy a Rift/Vive for $300 if it worked with the PC they already own…

    • Sponge Bob

      yet they buy iphones or galaxies for 700$ every 3 years

      • MosBen

        I think that I know only one person that’s ever purchased a phone for $700 upfront. Everyone else that I know, including myself, rely on heavily subsidized phones through carriers. Yes, of course they’re still technically paying full price for the phone, just built into the cost of their phone plan, but paying for a phone plan monthly and getting a “free” phone with it is quite a bit different than going to Best Buy and dropping $700 all at once for a new gadget.

        • Sponge Bob

          nothing is free as in beer
          and vr makers can do the same thing – subscription based app delivery service with heavily subsidized headsets

          • MosBen

            They can, but they haven’t, and probably won’t yet because even if they subsidized the HMD there’s still the matter of needing a computer with a relatively expensive graphics card. So to reiterate my point, shaving a couple hundred dollars off the cost of the HMD still leaves it squarely in enthusiast/early adopter territory. When a gaming console goes from $500 when it first comes out to $200 three years later that opens it up to consumers that simply won’t spend $500 on a gaming device. There’s literally nobody who is willing to spend $1,000 on a VR capable computer and HMD, but isn’t willing to spend $1,200.

            The reason that I strongly suspect that the next gen HMDs will have no significant increase in minimum system requirements is that I think that they want to take the need to that step of the process (needing to buy a VR capable PC) out entirely. They want anyone who’s purchased a PC in the last couple years to be able to use VR. So to the extent that things like foveated rendering make rendering a scene more efficient from a processing perspective it will be to allow lower end machines to be VR capable, not allowing the top end to push 4K displays.

  • Lucidfeuer

    Killing it softly

  • Johann Sebastian

    With the Rift offering the same visual experience, I don’t see any justification for this. The guy is just trying to establish a differentiation vs Oculus’ cost leadership strategy. Typical marketing monkey talk. Next.

  • Fear Monkey

    Wouldnt consider buying a Vive until they drop the price, sorry.

  • RockstarRepublic

    HTC was on the brink of bankruptcy prior to VR, so from the looks of it… they want to milk the cow for all its worth even though it is possibly costing them sales. They cant bare to think of lowering the price on anything. That kind of mindset will come back and hurt them.

    I own a Vive and a PSVR. The PSVR has a better display and build quality, cost less. Sony naturally was able to garner a bunch of sales in the process. Vive has better tracking and controllers, but can be a pain in the ass to deal with half the time. Its certainly not worth the price tag… and you are also spending an arm and a leg just to get the “accessories” or replacement parts.

  • Jonas Carlson

    I have had Vive for a year an loved it, but I revently bought a rift and its more comfortable and easy to setup. When I setup the Steam VR thing it is failing 5 out of 10 times, complaining about firmware upgrade and base stations not found. The setup on Oculus are much simpler. So it does not make sense for HTC to keep the higher price tag.

  • Totally Magical Unicorn

    Unobjectively, there’s no denying that the Rift is better value for money.

    But it’s not gonna give me the wireless stations and expansive roomscale that I desire. So I prefer the Vive.

    But I hope both companies do very well because I’m a fan of VR in all iterations. My personal preference is just with the Vive.

  • Totally Magical Unicorn

    Unobjectively, there’s no denying that the Rift is better value for money.

    But it’s not gonna give me the wireless stations and expansive roomscale that I desire. So I prefer the Vive.

    But I hope both companies do very well because I’m a fan of VR in all iterations. My personal preference is just with the Vive.

  • bschuler

    Glad they took the time to respond to Rift’s price cut. They do make valid points. I imagine if the Vive didn’t also dominate in VR Arcades, corporate applications, and in foreign markets though, they might have lowered the price a bit. There is no need for them to worry about missed sales at this time. And the point they make is valid, Ferrari doesn’t lower it’s cost because Hyundai lowers theirs.

  • xarai

    pos at a pos price

  • Creeper Craft

    Well for anyone who thinks rift is better than htc vive and has a vive I would be happy to take it off ur hands because I rly want one but im poor.